The Violence of Love

This is one post that probably should have a ‘trigger’ warning.  If you are upset by offensive language, abuse and hate speech, then beware that the following post contains several examples of such!

Yeah, tolerance and love are meant for non-harmful aspects of human identity. Not assholes. Eat glass.

I knew this would happen. And I don’t really want to write about it. But I do so because it allows you to see how things increasingly work in our society. It is a fascinating window into a world that most of us don’t want to be part of, but one which exists and which is increasingly influential on our society.   What am I talking about?

Last week the Scotsman published this article –  on the gender fluid movement, that is the latest part of the increasing confusion in our society on what it is to be human.

I finished with the question – “has Scotland become such an authoritarian culture that it is now no longer possible to have such a debate?”   The reaction to the article is the answer to that question.

When ‘liberal progressives’ adopt a new cause celebre they very quickly become so convinced that their position is the only sensible, compassionate, rational one that they regard it as immoral than anyone would hold a different viewpoint.  Forget the fact that it usually is something they did not hold to before, or that they know very little about, they are so sure of their own absolute morality that they will impose it upon the whole of society – without real discussion.   This is how they work. There are six steps (note that all the examples I mention below here are real…they are  a few of the posts I have received in the past week).

1) Ignore.  – Firstly they ignore any opposition or any alternative point of view. The last thing they want at any initial stage is any form of intelligent discussion. Thats why the recent parliamentary debate was kept so quiet.  The Tyranny of the Progressives – Another Step Backwards However when an article is published in the Scotsman and another letter in the Herald, it’s hard for them to ignore so they move on to step two.

2) Mock and Abuse – I received a huge amount of comments which were abusive. Some too horrible to put here – accusing me of paedophilia and other grotesque forms of sexual perversion.   Apparently the fact that I am a church pastor is sufficient to accuse me of child sexual abuse. According to this ‘knowledge’ I am only speaking of these things to hide my own perversity. Amongst other accusations I received the usual Hitler jibes.  I was accused of being a Nazi who wanted to gas Transgender people.

 is DAR pregnant (a miracle!) or has his Lord smitten him with an unhealthy paunch?

You’re a bigoted transphobic asshole. I recommend you French kiss a light socket to address it.

Sorry folks – Scotland can produce religious nutters to compete with the best that America can produce but Robertson really only represents himself and a few coffin dodgers who hate the gays. The Scotsman is a different issue – a so-called quality paper with a track record of anti LGBT rhetoric

Although I acknowledge these were a minority of the views I received they were still numerous – and I note that none of the more reasonable people challenged or contradicted the hate speech – and even worse, within a few hours people were denying it even happened!

(Another interesting side aspect is that there is apparently some kind of war between some feminists and some trans activists it’s a world I didn’t know existed – but its fierce!)

If this doesn’t work then they move on to step three.

3) Play the Expert card  – You are referred to ‘studies’ which strangely always agree with their pre-determined and pre-judged position.   I was especially intrigued by one impartial expert who kept being referred to and who even joined in the discussion himself.   Except he was hardly impartial! He runs a series of private clinics which make their money out of transgender. Read this fascinating article –  Private Health Clinic Business

The argument then moves on because they ask are there any experts working in the field who don’t hold to their philosophy. There are , but there is no way that they can be publicized. Why? Because like Dr Zucker, a respected psychologist who had worked in this field for many years, if you upset the Trans activists, they will get you fired. Trans Researcher Fired

And if any institution like John Hopkins, dares to take on this philosophy, they had better beware.

When I pointed out in my article that John Hopkins hospital, one of the pioneers of Gender Reassignment Surgery, had stopped doing it, I was called a liar and pointed to the fact that John Hopkins now allow GRS. What they didn’t say was that John Hopkins had stopped for 40 years and only at the end of last year had agreed to resume (although at the time of writing as far as I am aware, they had not). I also told my correspondents that this was not on the basis of new empirical evidence but rather because John Hopkins had been threatened. This was denied despite the following clear evidence.

A person with knowledge of HRC’s leadership decisions told NBC OUT that after repeated warnings, Johns Hopkins is now on the brink of losing its perfect score on that closely-watched benchmark for LGBTQ equality. The source provided the text of a warning sent in June, prior to the release of the report by Dr. Mayer and Dr. McHugh:

“Failure to take significant steps to distance Johns Hopkins Medicine from this line of Dr. McHugh’s personal beliefs and opinions will be considered an activity that undermines LGBTQ equality and patient care for the purposes of the Healthcare Equality Index score for Johns Hopkins Hospital.”



One of the strangest messages I received was this.

 Is your God peer-reviewed?

I wonder who they think God’s ‘peer’ is?!

The peer review argument is used all the time – usually by people who have never been peer-reviewed themselves. They have no source of authority, other than their own feelings, so they look for an external authority to back up their own prejudices, experiences and feelings, which no-one can argue against. Their God is ‘science’ (except it’s not really science – its more the idea of science) and especially that which is subject to verification by experiment and ‘peer review’. It is a logical positivist view of reality which is self-contradictory, but that does not seem to bother them.  The only evidence allowed is ‘peer-reviewed’ evidence, but such is the politicisation of this issue that no institution would dare to allow evidence against the prevailing view to even be carried out, never mind  peer-reviewed. The threats and hassle are real. The result is that of course all the ‘peer reviewed’ evidence will fit with their philosophy, because anything out with it will not be permitted. I’m afraid that is how academia works in many Western ‘liberal’ establishments.

The position is very binary.   We need experts and should listen to experts – but anyone who disagrees with me is not an expert and therefore should not be listened to.  This tweet was a classic of that genre –

 if you think Dr Zucker is respected then you don’t respect Trans people

If that doesn’t work then the next step is added.

4) Swamp – If you don’t give into the bullying, and see through the post-truth ‘we are the experts’, then they move on to just trying to overwhelm you.   Word goes round the networks and if you are on social media then be prepared for a Twitterstorm.  I have given up reading all the tweets and other nonsense. For only the second time I have resorted to blocking people – the amount of emotive nonsense and abuse is impossible to take.   It does swamp you….the constant accusations, abuse and threats  wear you down.

There is another side to the swamping.  They in effect say – see all these people who agree with us.  And you?  You are on your own.  We hate you.  Christians hate you.  You are an evil isolated scumbag who belongs with the Nazis and Fascists!  You can feel the love!

I think this criticism does have some validity.  There are many in the church who have caved into this, either because they don’t see the danger, or they don’t really care. Religion for them is just another cloak for whatever political philosophy is the flavour of the day.  They are happy to swim with the tide.  But we also need to recognise that there are millions outwith and within the church, (and to be honest at this stage in the UK and the USA I think it is by far the majority) who would agree with the stance we take.  That will change because they use the media and the education system to indoctrinate where they can – and they rely on the majority being silent and impotent, whilst sidelining any who do go against the flow.

And when all else fails the really nasty stuff happens

5) Threaten  –

First they go for the free speech argument. They really don’t believe in it. No-one should be allowed to speak in public who dares to question or disagree with them.  Take the following as examples:

 If you aren;’t Trans its incredible you think your opinion would even be relevant. 

 Free speech is a hugely misunderstood concept. It is only about the right for government not to persecute you for saying something they don’t agree with and that’s it. And even that right isn’t absolute. Usually, people like this who claim their freedom of speech is being infringed actually mean that they aren’t being allowed to spew whatever vile comments they want to whenever they want to with no consequence. That ain’t how it works!

In the name of love, equality and diversity it is being argued that the government sometimes has the right to persecute you for saying something they don’t agree with!

Then if you cite or quote any suspect source or institution (ie. anyone that has not openly bought into their agenda) then not only are you wrong, but you should not be allowed to speak.

There is free speech, yet when the speaker counts on his association with an entity of, Johns Hopkins, to add Veracity to his blasphemy, that is not commendable, and must be stated by present leaders what it really is, and be condemned for its mendacious effects on the Trans community and society. When they show that we will respected, and that they are truly cleaning their act, to be helpful and concerned leaders. Anyone defending a lying mendacious zealot, you are no better than McHugh.

That is an incredible statement. Look at the words. To disagree with this agenda is ‘blasphemy’ and blasphemy should be banned! It won’t be too long before the progressive inquisition will be round!

Another threat is a very direct and personal one. If you don’t agree with their philosophy you are responsible for the suicides, abuse and intolerance that Trans people receive. It’s a form of emotional bullying which takes no account of who you are and actually doesn’t really care. Everything has to fit with their ideology. People are expendable – even other Trans people who don’t buy into the whole ideology (for example the man on the BBC documentary who received death threats because he expressed his regrets). I think that some of the people who will suffer most because of this are those who suffer from Gender Dysphoria and really need help.

But it doesn’t just stop with all of this. The threats get real. The Scotsman was threatened with being reported to IPSO. I was threatened. But there really is not much they can do to me just now. My job is not under threat. At least not until they get to the stage of making Christianity illegal! And that day may not be too far away. Their fanaticism is scary.

Groups like Transmedia Watch will ensure that any reasonable discussion of transgender and other issues is prevented.   In a classic Orwellian twist they speak of accurate, respectful and clear material (translation: that which agrees with us) and of being against prejudice, bigotry and hate (translation: anyone who disagrees with us).

And then this extends to people being threatened with their jobs. Even in this past week journalists, doctors and teachers have been in touch. One teacher told me that their headmaster will get more money for the school if they show they are Trans friendly – and another said that they would be fired if they dared question a girl with psychological problems who is now saying they are Trans. This teacher does not dispute that Trans is real, but questions whether encouraging children who already have mental health issues along such an attention seeking route (which in the current climate is what it is for many). But they are too scared to say anything. Because this is no longer about what is best for the children. It is about a philosophy being adopted and taught as an absolute value.

I know politicians who know that this gender fluid philosophy is wrong – but they are unlikely to challenge it.  Either because they don’t know enough about it, or they know enough to know the abuse they will get and the fact that it could be the end of their careers.  There are also those who think it’s not that big an issue because it involves only a tiny percentage of the population.  But they don’t realise that the real issue here is not about helping those with Gender Dysphoria (which we should do) but using GD to promote a whole sexual/philosophical revolution, which will do incredible harm.  If any politician wants to know examples – I can give many.  Drop me a line!  (before you do your pre-ordained ‘consultation’).

So the answer to the question ‘will a respectful discussion be allowed’ is an emphatic no. As the quote at the top of this article indicates – “tolerance and love are meant for non-harmful aspects of human identity. Not assholes. Eat glass.”   

How can we respond?

Think –  We need to recognize that what is going on is evil. It is from the pit of hell. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Ephesians 6:12).   The non-Christian will not get this. The non-Christian will think that saying something is from the pit of hell or evil is ‘hate speech’. But it is precisely the opposite. We don’t hate those who disagree with us. We are not calling people ‘evil’, our battle is not against people, it is against the powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil. We love people because we see that they are made in the image of God, that identity is not found in gender, sexuality, race etc but rather is found in Christ.   Our greatest longing is not to destroy others, or to hate, or to win arguments…our longing is to see people ‘in Christ’ and to save them from the false philosophies which destroy lives.

Speak Out – There is a time for keeping silent and a time for speaking. I’m not talking about speaking out for ourselves, getting protections and concessions for ourselves.  I’m talking about speaking out for the poor, the disempowered and above all children – who if they are sown the seeds of this perverse teaching, will be reaping its bitter fruits for decades.  To those who think they can bully into silence – have another think!  It ain’t gonna happen.  We fear only God.  And we believe that love will overcome your hatred.

Overcome Evil with Good – At a personal level I have been so aware of evil in recent days. At times it is overwhelming. Great is the darkness that covers the earth. Not just because of this issue – which is such a small part, but so many other things. It is profoundly depressing, dark and dangerous.    But also I have rarely been so aware of the love and power of God; at times overwhelming in His beauty and intensity.   And therein lies the answer.

The Violence of Love

Much of the response I received shows that often those who speak about ‘love’ use hate as their modus operandi.   It’s what could be called the violence of love.  But the Christian has another version of that.  At the weekend I read this:

 What is the might of this city?  Whoso would understand the might of this city, let him understand the force of love.  That is a virtue which none conquers. Love’s flame, no waves of the world, no streams of temptation, extinguish.  Of this it is said, ‘Love is as strong as death’.  For as when death comes, it cannot be resisted; by whatever arts, whatever medicine, you meet it; no one can avoid the violence of death who is born mortal; so against the violence of love the world can do nothing…..for as death is most violent to take away, so love is most violent to save.  Through love many have died to the world, to live to God”  Augustine – On Psalm 48

Pray – We are to take on the full armour of God. We are to stand and not cower down before the forces of evil.  Read all of Ephesians 6 – but I leave you with these words:

Eph. 6:18       And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

For other info on this subject see:

The Re-imaging of Humanity – 3 – The Transgender Revolution

Scotland’s Babylon – Who is going to Speak for Scotland’s Children?








  1. These steps you mentioned here are steps I experience all the time with the new atheists who are so deluded that they have no idea that they are not atheists at all but instead hate theists. Thanks David for taking the time to explain how transgender supporters execute these steps.

  2. As I read this article, the words that kept coming up in my mind were those applied to John the Baptiser: “The voice of one crying; In the wilderness, prepare the way of the Lord.”

    We do live in appalling times; the Gospel is under threat at every turn; persecution of disciples of Jesus is ever increasing. It would be easy to become despondent. However, we must remember that none of this has caught Father God by surprise. He Who dwells in eternity, in “light inaccessible, hid from our eyes”, but Who has revealed Himself to us in the Son, is constantly aware of all that happens on this planet and among its inhabitants. As I wrote on my own blog (www.crazyrev.blogspot.com), just yesterday, “He is still on the throne – and shall be throughout eternity”!

    As your own recent ‘consultation’ would appear to have confirmed, your writings are a great encouragement to many – and I trust that all of us are upholding you before the throne of grace, in prayer.

    “Fear not, and be not dismayed … …; for the battle is not yours, but God’s.” (II Chron.20:15).
    “Be strong, and of good courage; be not frightened, neither be dismayed; for YHWH, your God is with you wherever you go.” (Josh.1:9).
    “Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.” (Eph.6:10-18).

    Blessings, and shalom.

  3. We (my husband and myself) are so sorry that you have been subjected to such abuse, for speaking the truth in love, and are praying for your protection and peace. May you continue your fearless witness and may God bless you richly. Thank you!

  4. Thank you Rev Roberttson for your courage, compassion and insight. I live in England but regularly read your posts and am encouraged to fight the good fight.

  5. I am so sad reading the rebuttals and rhetoric spewed your way.
    The hate for those who are Believers borders on the manic hysteria of a lynch mob—wanting to lynch the Christian…when exactly did it all get to this—and I think of the crowds and the mobs shouting “crucify him”…I suppose it goes back to then…
    stand firm David Robertson, God will bless you for always sharing the Truth!

  6. When I was facing insults when trying to defend some Christian truths on Facebook (though nothing as bad as you have had in the last few days) you said this in an email, “I feel your pain! I know what its like! These fundamentalist atheists hunt in packs, don’t think for themselves and are incredibly abusive…” I was very supported by that and so I hope you in turn will feel support from people who are reading your blog and feeling grateful that you are speaking so clearly about these things. We must pray for you.

  7. The abuse hurled is quite unacceptable in a reasonable society, but as you say, they are determined upon their own truth being unchallengable. Psalm 64: “They [the ungodly] search out injustice, saying, “We have accomplished a diligent search.”

    What astonishes me is that I have now stood twice in parliamentary elections, and once for council, as a Bible believing Christian and yet no-one has once asked me to my face about my understanding of issues such as abortion, homosexuality or this new business. There has been online criticism, but it was brought to my attention, not sent to me. I can only surmise that the liberal mindset is so certain of its version of ‘truth’ that it thinks that everyone agrees with them, and so such questions are pointless.

  8. The nice thing about peer-reviewed evidence is that you can look at the details of the methods and results. The documentary made the claim that something like 86% of people who identify as trans as a child, revert to their named birth-gender by adulthood.

    You’ve quoted it in a lot of your recent articles, but if you want a fully informed debate it should be a meaningless number without context. How many people were sample? When were the studies undertaken? How did they determine whether someone identified as trans (eg. did they say once that they wanted to be a girl/boy or was it severe distress)? What were the outcomes in terms of mental health (eg. did the 86% suffer from increased mental health problems in adulthood)?

    Peer-reviewed academic literature is definitely biased in terms of how funding is allocated and what is allowed to be published in the most ‘respectable’ journals, but at the end of the day any paper should provide a methodology and results section which can be easily followed, and used to either build an argument or quickly discarded. Your dismissal of peer-reviewed science reads like an endorsement of “alternative facts”.

    1. I don’t dispute the value of ‘peer reviewed’ papers/evidence. I do dispute that it is absolute. I find it strange that people ignore the bias of the peers and the publishers. I also dispute that it is the only evidence there is. It is a narrow criteria that works for some things and not for others. I don’t dismiss peer-reviewed science – I do dispute that the highly politicised issue of gender fluidity based upon a social theory that gender is just a social construct (itself non peer reviewed) can now have proper peer reviewed studies which do anything other than accept and ‘prove’ the pre-determined norm.

  9. Praying for you David. Be of good cheer, you’re on the right side of History! Thank you for being such an encouragement and example.

  10. Oh that more ministers would join you on the parapet.
    It’s the attacks by other “Christians” that must hurt the most. We are to expect persecution from the world but not those who profess to be our brothers.

    Be encouraged – “In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.”

    Stirling work David.

    Yours in Christ,

  11. with reference to the ‘peer review’ question, in the Gospel of John chapter 5 there is reference to the relationship between Jesus Christ and God the Father which perhaps could be called ‘peer review’.

  12. My dear David,

    I am a member in Stirling Free Church and also part of PPS.I just wanted to say that I am praying as you requested.

    Blessings on you and your family. May God enfold you in His PEACE as you seek to do His will.

    Anne Comrie


  13. I posted a blog on this subject on Doctors Net UK, a very popular website for doctors, and which frequently generates extensive and robust discussion on a range of topics. I focused particularly on the child health issues. I expected to receive many negative comments.

    I am sorry to say that there was very little response, and of those that did respond many did not see it as a matter of much concern.

    So sadly the medical profession seems to be as blind as anyone else with regard to the risks involved.

  14. just watching a news item about the woman who put the spoke in Brexit progress, and the awful threats she’s had.
    Well, they probably were awful, but what else is new? What makes them headline-worthy, when Christians get hate-mail as a matter of course?

    Maybe you should report some of your correspondents to the police, David. The Scottish Episcopal church did, when it was criticised for reading a blasphemous Koran passage in church.

  15. I’d recommend anyone fearing an attack like above read “SJWs always lie” by Vox Day (he’s alt-right so take some of it with a pinch of salt). As he argues, SJWs always lie, always double down, always project, just like the above article describes.

  16. Some points before a main point.

    1 Removal of hate comments. If they were recorded on the Scotsman site, they will have been removed as it is a “publisher,” wheras. I think, FB and Twitter contend they are merely providing a “platform” rather than publishing.

    2 The Church: there was an early comment on The Scotsman site from someone who said in effect that this would not be happening if people were converted to Christ and that is what we should be focussing on. That view does not take sufficient account of the education of children and harm to them; but it may be a view that looms large in the church, who see it as secondary issue or of insignificant importance.

    3 Research: I’m not sure there is any research supporting the proponents of gender fluidity, let alone peer reviewed research. And in the NHS there has been poor quality peer review. There is also a big difference between quantitative and qualitative reseach. And it is more likely that funding would be available to pro fluidity proponents in today’s climate.

    4 Without any reseach at all I’d suspect that all all of us, including LGBT and fluid have male and female, parents, not hermaphrodites.

    5 Goodfeldt: Is this whole topic not seen as a specialst area, that would have little effect on day to day practice and, apart from gender reassignmeny, it is a private ideological matter? I’m surprised,however, that paediatricians wouldn’t respond. I also surmise that child Mental Health specialist don’t use the site much.

    But my main point is this, David:

    You must be doing something right!

    Fom LUKE 6

    20 Looking at his disciples, he said:

    “Blessed are you who are poor,
    for yours is the kingdom of God.
    Blessed are you who hunger now,
    for you will be satisfied.
    Blessed are you who weep now,
    for you will laugh.
    Blessed are you when people hate you,
    when they exclude you and insult you
    and reject your name as evil,
    because of the Son of Man.

    23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.

    “But woe to you who are rich,
    for you have already received your comfort.
    Woe to you who are well fed now,
    for you will go hungry.
    Woe to you who laugh now,
    for you will mourn and weep.
    Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
    for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
    Love for Enemies

    27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

  17. David, you are one of the best writers and communicators I have ever had the good fortune to read. Everything you say has been very clearly thought about and there is rarely if ever any bitterness or rancour.

    The people you speak of are what may be described as ‘the revolutionary vanguard.’ They are a tiny, but very forceful minority, who are actually in some respects highly intelligent, although as you point out their sophistry is often a chimera which vanishes upon closer inspection.

    The Communist inference of the ‘revolutionary vanguard’ cannot be ignored.

    Because these people are intelligent, but lack what I would describe as the unblemished intelligence of the impartial mind, they are as you say overwhelmed with the correctness and ‘moral virtue’ of their own arguments. If they are wholly convinced that they are virtuous, then it stands to reason in their minds, that anyone who contradicts their ‘arguments’ is thereby wholly unvirtuous.

    Ordinarily, such people can be side-lined by what used to be referred to as common sense. However, their disproportionate amount of influence in powerful political and other circles, has given their creed a level of credulity and legitimacy, which it would otherwise not have.

    As you say, such is the oppressive power they wield, that many ‘choose’ or prefer not to speak out, for fear of hostile chastisement or indeed repressive action. Many have already lost their jobs and their livelihoods due to the new virtue terrorists.

    The Times newspaper today has a story which indeed personifies the new Virtue Terror which threatens to engulf us all. ‘Hate Crimes’ are now being moved onto the statute to enforce such idiotic and hateful ‘crimes’ as wolf whistling at a woman passing a building site. These gender ‘crimes’ are but the symptoms of the disease of ‘equality’ which at heart is a Communist inspired universal lie.

    The very fact that such a pernicious disease of Political Correctness or Cultural Marxism (see the Frankfurt School of Cultural Marxism) has now been allowed to spread to all of our major institutions, including our police, our judiciary and our educational establishments and has been given the oppressive credibility of legal sanction, should leave any thoughtful and right minded human beings terrified at the potential harm which these people can do, if allowed to continue to disseminate their wicked and harmful doctrines without a response from the usual silent majority.

    Through our silence are we not becoming complicit in our own demise and the demise of humane values. Evil prospers when good men and women stay silent.

    As a Christian, I wonder how we shall overcome this threat. I have a promise to God, a commitment to Jesus Christ, to do no harm, and to turn the other cheek.

    I cannot bear the thought of ever having to break God’s Covenant in order to defend myself. Does God ever allow us to do so and under what circumstances?

    How shall I and others, when faced with such a hideous ideology have the courage to restrain my natural desire to defend the values and beliefs which I hold sacred in the face of such a violent affront to humanity?

    It would appear that, just as it says in the Holy Bible, the time is coming when people will kill in the name of God and that during such times, everyone will find offence and be offended.

    “You shall know them by their fruit.”

    How are we as Christians to defend ourselves against the spiritual forces which are now threatening to overwhelm our beautiful world, when they manifest themselves in violent physical form?

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