A Real Consultation with a Female Elder Part Three
This article was first published in AP
The first parts of this correspondence can be found here –
A Real Consultation with a Female Elder – Part 1
A Real Consultation with a Female Elder – Part 2
This is the third and final exchange of letters:
Dear David,
I like your metaphor of a sermon in relation to a restaurant meal. A good sermon feeds spiritually as a good meal does physically. I have listened to all sorts of sermons, some I go away from feeling sated and others I am still hungry.
Maybe I could be one of those you mentioned, the one who doesn’t listen, or is not willing to digest what was heard in the sermon or even one who is disobedient. However, I don’t think that is the case for me. I have heard some very uplifting and fulfilling sermons and believe I can discern a sermon that feeds me spiritually, from ones that don’t. Like you, I have listened to many of Tim Keller’s sermons and other excellent ones online. I have heard fine women bible teachers at women’s conferences.
I am in need of spiritual sustenance and am grateful for the technology that makes it possible to hear some excellent church services etc. But as you say it’s not the same as sitting in a church service where the depth, the passion, the power and the presence of the Holy Spirit come across. This is what I am missing.
As much as I want to, I can’t argue with you regarding women elders, though I am a feminist who believes women are equal to men, I accept that the Bible is God’s word therefore we must obey it. It is a shame this view was not put to women in a way that didn’t make them feel patronised, oppressed or belittled. How that could have been achieved I have no idea but perhaps you should have been part of the group responsible for the proposal. If you can convince me of the right of not having women elders you can convince anyone.
It may be good for the church to look at how some of the men in eldership carry out their duties of shepherding the flock.
You asked if there is anything I do differently if I was not an elder – other than vote on a Session. That is not a problem for me as I am still able to care for, pray for people and work in the areas of church work I always have.
The other point I questioned was church growth or decline. I think it remains to be seen what will happen if women are barred from the eldership. It may be one of the reasons a church declines or grows but, also there could be many reasons, not the least being the church leadership.
Dear LCG,
Sad to say this is our final correspondence. I’ve really enjoyed discussing this with you, and doubtless we can continue in another format at another time. It actually scares me how much I agree with you! For example, I entirely agree about a good sermon feeding us spiritually as a good meal does physically. What I don’t like being served is junk food!
None of us like being served poison, and some sermons are poison because they preach heresy that take us away from Christ. Sometimes we are taught truth, but in such a way that it’s like a pre-packaged instant meal that doesn’t really help.
I am reminded of this story from my fellow Scottish preacher Alaistair Begg –
It’s funny that the minister to whom he refers was a man called Davey Paterson who was one of my predecessors in my first charge – Brora in the Scottish Highlands.
I also agree that you are not one of those people who is not willing to listen. The very fact that you and I are able to have this conversation indicates that you are willing to listen to uncomfortable truths.
And I agree that there are many fine women Bible teachers. I think particularly of someone like Nancy Guthrie, or the speakers at the Equip Conference. Are you going to join them this year?
In terms of technology, again, I find myself agreeing with you. I regularly listen to sermons online, less so services. But excellent though the teaching may be, it is not the same as being there. I want to be in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day. (Revelation 1:10)
I’m kind of fed up of the mechanistic view of evangelism, which is basically all programs and methods. For me, evangelism is very simple. What I really want more than anything is people to leave our church service and to be so excited that they want to tell people. You don’t have to cajole them into telling people. They want to tell people. Like the woman at the well, they go home to their communities and say: “Come see a man who told me everything I ever did.” (John 4:29)
I think what we are talking about in terms of sermons and evangelism and church community is more important than the question of women elders. Although I don’t regard that as unimportant. So, let’s return to it. I think you’ve expressed the case very simply. For me, it’s just what God’s word teaches (1 Timothy 3:1-7). I don’t have to justify it. I don’t even have to like it. I just believe that it’s what the word teaches, and we have to go with that.
I agree entirely that many times women can feel patronized, oppressed, or belittled. That’s not what scripture does. That’s not what Jesus does. That’s not what the church should do. By the way, I should also add that I am someone who thinks that women are equal to men – because that is clearly what the Bible teaches. We are both made in the image of God.
I also think that a significant question, if not a more significant question, is the general state of the eldership. The Presbyterian Church is crying out for good, godly elders who are not church staff or full-time or part-time pastors.
I’m not a big fan of the continual training mantra, but I suspect that if there is one area where we do need more training, it is in this regard, training for elders. I wish that the Presbyterian Church in NSW would spend less time arguing about the gender of elders and more time raising up godly elders.
Let’s return back to your own role. Yes, you are still able to care for people, to pray for people, and to work in the areas of church work you always have done. You’re the kind of woman I would exactly want in my congregation. I’m so thankful to the Lord that in recent months, he seems to be sending us some very capable women. We could do with some more men!
As regards the question of church growth, I think you’re right to say that it remains to be seen what will happen. However, I don’t think that having women in the eldership or barring women from the eldership will be a silver bullet in either case – although it is the case that a church which ignores the Word of God is unlikely to have healthy growth. For me, it is normal that a church grows in the same way that it is normal that a child grows. Being fed by the word, praying, having fellowship together, seeking to reach out to those who are lost, caring for the poor. All of these things are characteristic of a healthy and therefore growing church.
Now, sometimes that church may decline. As Jesus tells us: “My father is the gardener, and those whom he loves, he prunes.” (John 15:1-2) Several times I’ve been in situations where there has been a pruning in the church, and it’s been painful, but it always results in new growth. I believe that God’s word will not return to him void, but will always achieve the purpose for which he sent it. (Isaiah 55:11) And surely that purpose includes the salvation of sinners, the building up of the church, and his name being glorified through the kingdom growing and extending?
I think this is probably a good place to leave it. You and I both pray for the extension of the kingdom in our lives, in our churches, in the places to where God has called us. We hunger and thirst for the Lord. May God quench your thirst and sate your appetite. I look forward to meeting you again.
Yours in Christ,
David.