Presbyterianism can be a bad way of governing the church. In its worst form it is over centralised, authoritarian, political and bureaucratic. So maybe the best way to govern the church is Independency? After all it recognises the significance of the local church and gives freedom to develop and grow. It’s why some in the Free Church and other Presbyterian churches like the PCA tend to act like independent congregations within the denomination. But Independency has real problems too – not least the difficulty of what to do when things go wrong, and the fact that the pastor is employed by the congregation and subject to the dreaded congregational meeting!
Thats why FIEC (Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches) is so important for Independent congregations. It’s a form of Presbyterianism light. But for those of us who go in for fully caffinated Presbyterianism, what we need is the real biblical stuff! Like I saw last night at the Free Church Presbytery of Edinburgh and Perth. I enjoyed and was encouraged and stimulated by the discussion. And believe you me, it’s not often I have been able to say that about Presbyteries. Why?
In the 1990’s I remember dreadful presbyteries full of procedure, religious legalise, trivia and endless motions, counter motions and appeals. It was embarrassing and depressing. I can’t recall ever discussing any church plants! Last night we discussed several. We talked about Aberdeen and their new building and desire for evangelism there. We talked about a new church plant in Haddington just outside Edinburgh. And we talked about the church plant in Montrose. We heard about the old St Petes church plant in St Andrews. Our daughter church has now grown to such an extent that this Sunday they are commencing a second morning service! Our wee baby is all growed up!
All of this was tremendously encouraging – but none more so than the first item of business – approval for a church plant in Charleston, Dundee. The following is from the Mission Board (please note that it is the Free Church Mission Board – not Missions – there is a reason!) – By the way please check out and ‘like’ Here the Mission Board FB page which has regular updates on the Mission of the Church
Edinburgh presbytery last night gave its enthusiastic backing to a new church plant in the Charleston area of Dundee.St Peter’s, Dundee, pioneered a young people’s ministry which led to a youth club, parent and toddler club as well as various holiday clubs. The time has now come to develop this into a local church.There is a core group of 10 people and it is anticipated that Andy Robertson will be appointed as the lead planter to begin work in September 2017.Charleston will have links with the neighbouring community of Lochee where there is a thriving church planted by Central Baptist, Dundee with input from 20 Schemes.The church planting work in Dundee has been inspired very much by the life of Robert Murray McCheyne, the first minister of St Peter’s. He observed the spiritual famine in the city and wrote in his diary, ‘Accompanied A. B. in one of his rounds through some of the most miserable habitations I ever beheld. Such scenes I never before dreamed of. Ah why am I such a stranger to the poor of my native town? I have passed their doors thousands of times…What embedded masses of human beings are huddled together unvisited by friend or minister! ‘No man careth for our souls,’ is written over every forehead. Awake my soul Why should I give hours and days any longer to the vain world, when there is such a world of misery at my very door? Lord, put thine own strength in me; confirm every good resolution; forgive my past long life of uselessness and folly!’Church planting is resource demanding, costing at least £50,000 ($63,000) per annum for running costs. If you wish to invest financially in Charleston then please get in touch with the St Peter’s office office@stpeters-dundee.org.uk
This is our church planter!
(The development of a church planter – youth conference, to student worker, to being licensed by Presbytery and getting married to Caireen).
As Andy (Andrew to his parents!) is my son I will be having very little to do with this plant – other than of course to encourage, pray for and support. In my view he and Caireen are a great couple to do this kind of work. It is a dream come true. To have the Free Church and St Peters do this church plant, from scratch, in the poorest housing estate in Dundee is the fulfillment of a long-term desire. It is only a beginning, but may it be the first of several such new churches.
Which brings me back to where I came in – these things are almost impossible to do on your own – even if you are a quite large church. It’s why so many church plants take place in Middle class/University areas – because they are much easier to become self-supporting and ‘viable’. Here is where biblical Presbyterianism comes in. It is great for mission!
To do this kind of church planting requires the support of interdenominational groups like the excellent Twenty Schemes (who I hope we will work with), support from other like-minded Gospel churches (such as Chalmers church in Edinburgh where Andrew now works), and an outward looking denomination which is prepared to pool resources and work together. This is biblical Presbyterianism. It’s not about books of order, notices of motion and centralised bureaucracy – it’s about gospel co-operation, shared vision, and church discipline in the best sense. Going to Presbytery is going to be an unmissable joy, rather than a dreary chore, if we have more nights like last night – when we really are engaged on the Lord’s business. Soli Deo Gloria!
A query. Is there no small but faithful church in the area that could be reinvigorated, rather than going to all the effort to ‘plant’ a new one? All too often I have seen churches (both near me and elsewhere) plant new congregations without making any attempt to talk with, or support, the small but faithful local congregation/s in the very area they are planting.
I have a variety of theories why this is, but am more interested in asking the question, in order to challenge those who are keen on planting ‘their kind of church’.
There is no ‘small but faithful’ church in the area so your theory/question does not apply but thanks for asking these questions. But I have a few questions of my own! Why is the word ‘small’ usually followed by ‘faithful’? Why do you assume that local churches would not have been asked anyway? And what do you mean by ‘their kind of church’? We just wanted to plant a gospel church in an area where there isn’t one!
Dear David,
I am afraid I didn’t get your original reply. Just found it, the joys on on-line-ism!
Thank you for your response. To be clear, I was just asking, not to challenge you but to challenge others – a question born out of the realisation that planting where there is already a faithful congregation (normally small, and not regarded as being of worth as a result – if that explains that bit better) seems to be happening a lot down here in London. Various groups who will remain nameless set up congregations in towns (which we do have in London!) where there is already a faithful congregation, but they simply don’t like the style of them, or do not hold them of any value because they are on a downswing of the growth/shrinkage cycle that happens within almost every congregation that ever has been. If a handful of committed (and younger?) Christians were to attend that congregation it would immediately be strengthened and encouraged without all the splitting up of the small number of us there are anyway. In the early church each town and city had only the one congregation – I don’t think many towns today are so large they need more than one.
I am very pleased that this is not the case in this instance. I am also pleased that you are planting where there is nothing. There are two towns in my adopted home county of Dorset, one large and one smaller, that neither have a faithful Biblical congregation of any size whatsoever. I often dream of having some way to start something there (but now is not the time to leave the congregation to which I am now pastoring, if ever).
As for the other correspondent’s bringing up of the Christian Party and my involvement with it, it has no bearing on this, except that by being so involved, and publicly noticed as a result, we have to be those who are publicly prepared to stand up for the Gospel, and seek to bring it to bear on every aspect of life. It is amazing that by making a stand for Christ in a particular way one gets accused of ‘having an agenda’ – I am sure you get this too. Al I want is for the gospel of salvation through Christ alone to be preached. Thank you for doing that in Charleston.
Amen David. Now is the time for those of us whom the Lord has blessed to think about how we can help those who are working with new Kingdom communities who have no financial and few physical resources. Our question needs to be ‘What has the Lord blessed me with that I can give to the Kingdom.
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
Is the church of Scotland in Charleston not a Gospel based church?
No.
So the presbyterian CoS in the area is no longer a gospel church? Hopefully discerning readers will notice that ‘the difficulty of what to do when things go wrong’ is not just a problem for independent churches!
Yep – you got it. Once you cease to preach the Gospel you are no longer a gospel church. I am sure that discerning readers will be able to work that one out!
Sometimes I wish that people would say who they really are as part of the contributions they make here. I think Mr Stockford belongs to the “Christian Party” and probably has an agenda that I am not aware of.
But I’m also bothered by the defensive/combative nature of the reply to his questions instead of answering them.Are there not other evangelicals churches near to or in the area mentioned that could have been co-opted into this wonderful project? If there aren’t any, then fair enough. Let’s get on with it.
But – and there is always a “but” – is this part of a wider movement away from denominationalism, premised on a looser definition of what it means to be Presbyterian? The Tron in Glasgow went down the same path a few years ago, moving from Presbyterian to “presbyterial”, thereby incorporating FIEC affiliated churches and others into their overall “presbyterial” structure. (Look at their Council of Reference to get a flavour of this).
I suppose my main worry is that this could be another neo-Calvinistic fad imported from the USA where it has done so much damage.
Its funny isn’t it…if one replies to an ‘offensive’ comment based upon ignorance you can automatically guarantee that someone will accuse you of being ‘defensive’. Maybe people should keep silent if they don’t know…or ask genuine questions – (ie. not ones that are accusations!).
In answer to your question – no there are not other evangelical churches in the area. There is a Baptist 20Schemes church plant in a neighbouring housing estate (Lochee) which we support and will work with.
No it is not a move away from Presbyterianism (it is after all a Presbyterian church that is planting a presbyterian church)…but your comment seems somewhat contradictory to your previous one. Do you think it should be a Presbyterian church or one that is done with other evangelical churches?
And if your main worry is that this could be another neo-Calvinistic fad from the US then you need to get a sense of perspective so your worries can be a little more real! I’m sorry if this seems defensive but it is somewhat depressing that after writing a post about a new church plant in an urban housing estate in Scotland one gets this kind of negative feedback based on ignorance and pre-judgement. Sometimes if you’ve got nothing to say, its better to say nothing. It depresses me how often in Christian work is not the opposition of your enemies that you have to worry about, its the ‘support’ of your friends!
There seems to be a lot of stuff going on here that is beyond me, I’m pleased to say. There you are – I’ve said nothing.. Settle down, fellas. After all , whose purposes are being served?
PS
It’s good to hear of new plants with vigour and faith and commitment and youth, working into communities. at time of seeming “wasting away” of, ” invisible church.”
Itmust be very disheartening to you, when you have been thrilled about a new church plant starting in just the sort of area where the Gospel is so much needed, and where many churches would not work, to get these negative comments. But remember Nehemiah when he was opposed, and how he answered saying “I am doing a great work: I cannot come down”, and don’t be discouraged by the negativists. Keep your eyes on the Lord and remember “your labour in the Lord is not in vain”. God bless you and your son.