The reaction to my comments on Creflo Dollar Why Creflo Dollar is not Welcome in Scotland has been astonishing. Especially from a number of Christians who are hurt/annoyed/angry/disappointed/shocked/horrified…..
Rather than deal with the many responses which vary from the ‘How dare you criticise the anointed prophet of the Lord’ to the ‘I’m not sure if its very nice or correct to speak publicly in this way – why not just have a quiet word?” approach, I was just going to let it all go, until I received this astonishing message from a Church of Scotland minister, Rev Frank Campbell. I reproduce it in full.
I write as a minister of the Church of Scotland who is also a partner with Creflo Dollar Ministries. wonder, Mr Robertson, if you have actually listened to Creflo, or read any of his material?
Like you, I struggled with the idea that God might actually want to see the resources of this world in the hands of His church, so that His church can use those resources to help others, rather than in the hands of unbelieving sports and entertainment megastars, or – worse – those who make their money trading drugs or weapons. Yet I learned that my prejudices against what is often called the “prosperity gospel” were just that – prejudices, unsupported by scripture. Please check, for example, Proverbs 10.22, Psalm 35.27, 3 John 2, Proverbs 13,22 with Psalm 112,9 speaking of an end-time double wealth transfer,
To put things into perspective, the main thrust of Creflo’s teaching is not on money but on the overwhelming grace of God and His commitment to the salvation of humanity – see Hebrews 9,12, 1 John 2.2, 1 Timothy 2.4, 2 Peter 3.9 – and the free availability, through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, of God’s blessing for all who will simply receive from Him.
Also to put things in perspective, Creflo & Taffi pastor churches in New York on Saturdays and Atlanta on Sundays, and there is no Greyhound bus between one and the other over night!! The plane is but a tool of the job, to get the Good News of Jesus out as far and as fast as possible … and indeed Creflo & Taffi spread the Word all over the globe. It is no different in principle to the church car that some of us use to get around our rather smaller parishes. And as regards inviting the members to contribute toward the cost, is it really so much more offensive than the appeals of many other churches for money to maintain and repair stained glass windows and such like?
Whilst I totally respect your right to disagree with Creflo’s teaching, I’m not sure that such intemperate and personalised attacks reflect any great credit on a denomination that, up to now, I have had a high regard for. Also, I think it would be helpful for you to have fuller information on how Creflo Dollar Ministries uses the resources entrusted to it, before making sweeping statements unsupported by balanced evidence.
I would very much like to send you some of Creflo’s teaching material. Would you be willing to give it a fair hearing in the light of God’s Word?
Dear Frank,
What a stunning message! My flabber is truly gasted! There is so much in your email that completely astonishes me. However I want to thank you for your message and the spirit in which it was written.
It also gives me the opportunity to point out the main problems with Creflo Dollar coming.
1. Struggle?
“I struggled with the idea that God might actually want to see the resources of this world in the hands of His church, so that His church can use those resources to help others” –
I confess I don’t struggle at all with the idea that God wants to use the resources of this world, which are after all his, to enable his church to grow. But could you explain how having several cars, including a Rolls Royce, a mansion in Atlanta and a penthouse in New York and a $60 million private jet is using resources to help others?
Incidentally another correspondent accused of not believing that God wants to bless his people. Of course I do…I just don’t equate that blessing with being materially rich. Although I do accept that everything we receive materially is a blessing from the Lord and I am delighted to accept such gifts. For example a lovely Christian couple gave us a weekend in a lodge on Loch Lomond. It was a gift from the Lord. But there is a difference between receiving these gifts and seeking them. There is a difference between receiving and telling your congregation that if they give to you they will get ten times back – as though giving to the Lords work was the ultimate investment scheme!
2) What on earth is an ‘end time double wealth transfer’?
What kind of religious gobbledygook is that? Did David, Solomon and John know this is what they were writing about? And your use of Scripture is highly selective and indeed contradictory to your position. Lets just take the verses you cite in support of preachers taking offerings to buy $60 million private jets.
Proverbs 10:22 – How convenient that you leave out v.2 “Ill-gotten treasures are of no value,” and you totally negate the teaching of Jesus and Paul that in this world we will have trouble.
Psalm 35 – has nothing to say about the subject. Indeed it is a song about someone who is poor and in trouble – not a prosperity Gospel preacher who is naming and claiming it.
3 John 2 – again says nothing about the subject. However there is an appropriate comment on this in v9. “I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us.” Creflo Dollar ministries is all about Creflo Dollar (and Tami)…the clue is in the name. He loves to be first.
Proverbs 13:22 – again says nothing about the subject. However v. 17 is appropriate – “A wicked messenger falls into trouble, but a trustworthy envoy brings healing.”
And then my favourite miscitation from you.
Psalm 112:9 “He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures for ever; his horn will be lifted high in honour.” This is God giving his gifts to the poor. It does not justify a multi-millionaire evangelist fleecing the poor in order to further his own nest. I am reminded of U2 –
” I can’t tell the difference between ABC news, Hill Street Blues, and a preacher on the Old Time Gospel Hour stealing’ money from the sick, and the old. Well the God I believe in isn’t short of cash mister”.
3) Can anyone seriously ‘pastor’ a church in New York on Saturdays and Atlanta on Sundays?
That’s like me saying I pastor in Dundee on Saturdays and Madrid on Sundays. You do realise that there are commercial planes hourly between the cities? More importantly what does any of this have to do with NT ministry? It’s more like a rock star doing gigs. In the church there are no rock stars, and the only celebrity is Christ. You talk about getting a sense of perspective. If you take off the Dollar tinted glasses and look through the lens of Scripture I would suggest your perspective would be a lot more realistic.
4) A private jet is no different from a car that we use for visiting?!
I can think of one – $60m dollars worth! I am sitting writing this in my office after cycling to work in the freezing cold. It would be nice to have a second car so that I would not have to do this but rather than hinder my ministry it has helped. Why? Because I get to see the city, meet people and pray. I have invented prayer cycling! Tell Mr Dollar and I’m sure he will turn it into a programme which he can market to the gullible.
5) What is the difference between maintaining and preparing a stained glass window and a congregation paying for a preacher’s private jet?
The key is in the word ‘private’. The stained glass window is for the glory of God and for all to see. The private jet is for the private comfort of the preacher.
6) You think my language is intemperate and personalised?
You ain’t seen nothing yet! Do you struggle with the language of Elijah (‘where is your God…has he gone to the toilet?), Paul (I wish these false teachers would go the whole way and castrate themselves!), or Jesus ‘you white washed tombs – twice dead’? If your ‘high respect’ for the Free Church has been shaken by my critique of a false teacher like Creflo Dollar then I’m not sure we want your respect.
What evidence would you like me to have that changes the fact of jets, cars, houses, millionaire salaries etc.? Would you like me to have the evidence about how this preacher of the Good News was so filled with the fruit of the Spirit that he was arrested for assaulting his daughter and the charges were only dropped because he agreed to undertake an anger management course?
7) Creflo’s Teaching
I would very much like to send you some of Creflo’s teaching material. Would you be willing to give it a fair hearing in the light of God’s Word?
At last we come to something we can agree on. Of course we should evaluate teaching not on the basis of rumour and gossip but on the basis of the teaching itself. Your assumption seems to be that I have not heard or evaluated Dollar’s teaching before.
I have a confession to make. I occasionally do something that I suspect is sinful because it has such a bad effect on me. I don’t mean to do it, and I try not to do it often, but sometimes I give into temptation, I hit the keyboard and it comes up on the screen. I am of course talking about pornography – the spiritual pornography of God TV. Of course there are some good things in it – like there apparently used to be some good articles in Playboy – but overall it is the most depressing kind of spiritual exploitation and false teaching. And of course Mr Dollar has plenty money and so is able to pay to get his teaching on there often. You do realise that it is not on there because of its quality but because Creflo Dollar ministries pay for it? Anyway after I got your message I was a wee bit convicted and thought (as I often do) – maybe you’ve got this wrong? Maybe you were a wee bit over the top. So I prayed and then switched on the Internet and turned to God TV. And lo and behold, guess who was on? Yep – you got it. Mr Dollar. And I got the whole of his latest message. Let me give you a summary of the notes, but in case you doubt you can access it here – http://www.creflodollarministries.org/Watch-and-Listen?slug=Enforcing-Spiritual-Laws&returnUrl=%2FWatch-and-Listen&type=Video&page=1
Clip 1 – Creflo Dollar – Enforcing Spiritual Laws – published April 13th, 2016
“You see God’s power comes to pass through us. He doesn’t do anything independently of us. He’s not doing something aside from us. God uses flesh …. The no 1 reason people don’t receive from God is because they don’t operate in their authority. That’s the number one reason that Christian people don’t receive from God their healing, their deliverance, their prosperity. It’s because they’re not operating in their authority. You have authority, ladies and gentlemen. Believers have authority. You have a right to command. And while you’re praying sometimes you need to be using your authority because when God gave you the authority – to heal the sick, to raise the dead, to cast out devils – when he gave you authority over over all the works of his hands, you can pray all day long but he’s not going to do anmything that he has authorised you to do…It’s not enough for you to believe that Jesus can do it. It’s not enough to believe that Jesus can heal you, that Jesus can deliver you, that Jesus can prosper you, but you must now believe that you can do it too. Boy that’s radical…You’ve been in church, some of you, all your life and nobody’s ever said that to you… [Christians] keep going to God and asking God to do something that he has authorised you to do!”
That’s not radical. Its blasphemous, abusive, soul destroying heresy. Can I ask how many people you have healed? Raised from the dead? According to Creflo if people get sick its because YOU are not exercising your authority.
Clip 2
“You have so much authority that you can either authorise the devil to execute his will to destroy you or you can authorise God to execute his will to bless you….The words of your mouth will authorise the devil or it’ll authorise god. There is nothing that the devil has that you don’t have authority over. He can’t do nothing to you unless you authorise him or give him an inroad where he can come and do it. He needs your authority to hurt you….boy, that’s radical….that’s amazing… We have power over the devil… over all of his lies etc.”
I can ‘authorise’ God to save me?! God needs me to authorise him? Do you realise how blasphemous that is?
Clip 3
“What good is it for you to believe that Jesus can do it, if you can’t do it? That’s frustrating…. It’s not enough for you to believe that God can do it, but you must believe that God has given you spiritual authority and spiritual power to do it…We need to start walking around like little Jesus’s….I believe Jesus can do it.. and I believe I can do it…”
In the context it is clear that Creflo is not talking about having the character or the Holy Spirit of Christ. He is talking about us walking round and doing what Jesus did – healing, raising the dead. Which makes me wonder why Creflo needs a jet at all – surely he can just fly through the air? He has the authority!
Clip 4
“Now I’m putting the responsibility on you. You can no longer put it on the devil. You can’t put it on God. I am saying it is your responsibility. You have been given the power. You have been given the authority. And whatever you do in the name of Jesus it’ll be done….ooh we are raising up a supernatural church .”
No- you are raising up a dumbed down church of gullible Christians who are being suckered by a showman shyster.
And in case you have any doubt about what he is saying he gives the example of an evangelist who sees all his family die and is told by God, ‘its your fault’ because you did not take authority. This man was at the deathbed of his only remaining relative, his sister. He was told it was his fault she was sick. He prayed. And he was told that prayer was not enough. He needed to take the authority. His sister died and he was told that it was his fault she died. So then he took authority and commanded her to come alive and lo and behold, she was raised from the dead. This man then went on to have a ministry of raising the dead. Dollar tells us that this man went on to heal over 500,000 people and was so effective that the State of Washington gave him authority to open up a hospital! Does no one see the flaw in this story? If you are healing people why do you need a hospital?! Do people really fall for this garbage? Its more like Steve Martin than Jesus Christ –
And then at the end of the programme we are told that we can believe, receive and say ‘its mine’. We can take control of our emotions. We can say ‘I won’t be depressed. We can enforce the spiritual laws. We must not put it off , we can get a set of this weeks dynamic teaching… from the heart of Dr Dollar (why from the heart of Dr Dollar – I want preachers not to tell me their heart, I want the heart of Christ!)… we are guaranteed spiritual success, HEALING ETC… all for a ‘love gift’ of $45 OR MORE.
Frank – this is the doctrine of demons. This is an abusive and Godless misuse of the name of Jesus taking the beauty and glory of the Word of God and turning it into an opportunity to make money. It is from the pit of hell.
And that is why I speak. To do otherwise would be to betray my Lord and Saviour. To do otherwise would be to open up my own people to spiritual abuse and harm. The Gospel according to Dollar is cruel, exploitative and a denial of Christ.
Two days ago I was at the bedside of a poor elderly woman who was dying. As I was in her wee room, and listening to her laboured last breathes (she died a couple of hours after I left) – I prayed with and for her. According to Dollar I sinned – because I did not claim authority over death. I did not heal her and I did not raise her from the dead. I am thinking of also of the member of my church who is in hospital now having been operated on for cancer, and the friend who has just had an operation for a brain haemorrhage, or the loved one in a land far away who is sick (the jet would sure come in handy for visiting them!). I don’t claim the authority to heal them. I pray to Jesus and I trust in his goodness, power and grace, to heal, to wound or to take them to him. I have good news for the poor – and it is not that they can be rich or have power – but that they can know, have and love Christ – who to know is eternal life.
Yesterday was an astonishing day for me. I received articles and messages from the Atheistic Secularists, religious right-wingers who want me banned from the Gospel Coalition and several others who poured out abuse in a social media hate fest. I have debated with the most liberal gospel deniers in your own church and yet I have to say this; of all of them, by far the most depressing and dangerous is the doctrine of the man you are defending. As it comes with an evangelical coating it is therefore far more likely to influence the faithful than the liberal nonsense of the likes of Scott McKenna. I was so disturbed by this that I could not sleep last night.
I believe that the teaching of Dollar and others like Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Cindy Jacobs, Bethel Church and Joel Osteen (note the pattern – all mega rich preachers of the prosperity gospel) is impacting the church here in Scotland. I have friends in charismatic churches who tell me that it is causing havoc amongst their congregations – who are being blown here and there by every wind of doctrine.
So I speak out. And I encourage other Christian leaders to do the same because at the moment I feel like I am the only one saying anything (although many agree) and therefore it’s far too easy to just personalise it, attack the messenger and ignore the message.
For example this tweet came from a Destiny leader
“Do you put as much passion into seeing the lost saved as you do into tearing into other leaders?”
The Dollar Corporation do the same thing. In an Atlanta newspaper they stated:
“It’s our intention to fulfil our commitment and, hopefully, be a blessing to those in attendance,” Bolton said. “We don’t care to speculate on what sounds like a local, competitive or political matter. Where there are humans, there will be divisions and differences.”
Source: AJC.com
Patronising baloney.
This is not a little local difficulty as though I was engaging in some kind of church politics because I am jealous of Destiny or any other church. This is about the Gospel. It is about Christ. I don’t care two hoots about church politics. I care about the people of Scotland, I care about the glory of Christ, I care about the Church being fed this spiritual poison and it being endorsed by those who are supposed to be their under shepherds, protecting the flock from the wolves.
So I leave you with three challenges:
- To Creflo Dollar and your ‘ministry’. Instead of spending $60 million on a private jet, if you really want to advance the kingdom of Christ here in Scotland, give us the $60 million and we will plant 60 churches. Just change the comfort of sitting in a leather seat for seeing many gathered round the Throne in heaven. That seems to me a good deal.
- To Destiny and others who have invited Dollar. In the name of God and for the sake of Christ, withdraw your invitation. If you really care about the Gospel in Scotland take courage and turn away from this false teaching. It’s not too late.
- To all the Lord’s people. Let’s not listen to the junk food coming out of the corporate Christianity exemplified by Dollar and others. Let us listen to Christ, speaking through his Word. Let us repent for our coldness, sin, politics and lack of passion. Let us get back to the basics of prayer, the Word, the fruit and gifts of the Spirit. Maybe your church is not the latest snazzy thing you see on God TV, but if it is faithful to the Lord it is the most beautiful place to be on earth. We do not have silver and gold to offer, but what we have we give. We have Christ! We are the richest people in the world.
LINKS
“If you want to fly, don’t buy a private jet with the sacrificial gifts of the Lord’s people; wait for the Rapture.”
https://theweeflea.com/2014/10/31/confessions-of-a-rich-pastor/
Here is why this is so wrong….it really allows the world to mock and abuse….I’m afraid that John Oliver is largely right in his critique
I wonder if Alexis can tell us where he or she ministers, please.
Thanks David – maybe more “Jesus-like” in style than I would feel able to be, but that’s not really a bad thing. OK, I was already agreeing with you; now I know better why.
There are professing Christians who are false teachers because the subtract from the gospel. Others are false because they add to the gospel. While yet others are false because they twist and distort the gospel. I am afraid, prosperity preachers fall at least into the latter category. I am saddened and amazed that a C of S minister thinks that old covenant promises of this-world material blessings applies as they stand to new covenant believers. I take it he believes that all other aspects of this covenant equally apply.
Many thanks for taking a stand for Christ, truth and righteousness David. The ball is now very firmly in the court of Destiny Church to withdraw its misguided invite to Mr Dollar. Failure to do so will merely confirm the widely held suspicion that there are church leaders in Scotland who endorse and work with those who have corrupted the Gospel message for their own ends and are lining their own pockets at the expense of the poor. This kind of thinking and behaviour has no place in the Church in 21st century Scotland.
I fully agree with your comments. Many Preachers have corrupted the true Gospel message but the Lord will have his day. I truly thank David Robertson for his stand for the truth.
And all God’s people said (or ought to say) Amen! and Amen!. It is desperately sad to see so many professing Christians being taken in by this evil preaching that emanates from hell itself. I have written to Destiny to ask for an explanation of why they have invited him and if they really identify with his teaching and await their reply though I am not holding my breath!
Yes. Well. Anyone who thinks this type of belief and worship is in anyway useful to poor and vulnerable people needs a reality check.
John Oliver did an excellent segment on this – https://youtu.be/7y1xJAVZxXg
and this – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUndxpbufkg
and more on Youtube.
Human beings have long exploited other human beings. This is just another example of it.
David, You are spot on with your analysis! Biblical illiteracy is rampant, Pietism and false teaching is everywhere. Never stop with your bold responses to these ridiculous views.
David, you’ve probably already read this, but I will mention the book, ‘just in case’:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Serrated-Edge-Biblical-Trinitarian-Skylarking/dp/1591280109/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1460633025&sr=1-3&keywords=serrated+edge
Your stance is perfectly rational and justifiable. More importantly, it is essentially biblical. Unfortunately, those who are criticising your position appear to have lost the capacity to reason biblically.
Keep on keeping on, brother!
Amen brother David. I am so delighted to see people like you stand for the TRUTH and exposing the dangerous and demonic gospel arising today. I am sharing this article.
Keep on bringing everything into the light of scripture. Blessings to you in yourr ministry
I suspect that what a lot of us have been blindsided by is the rise of celebrity (and ignorance). Whether you follow politics or theology or anything else with at least small degree of thought or background knowledge; the realisation of the extent to which so many people round about us are in thrall to celebrity is coming as a bit of a shock.
‘No one saw the rise of Trump.’
Is that true? No.
Andrew Brietbart before he died warned that celebrity is ‘everything’ and warned of the danger of a celebrity president. It seems he was thinking specifically of Trump given what he said about him.
I discussed the idea that there may be a lot of people about who have a surprisingly low level of knowledge or comprehension about things that most people assume that everyone knows. An opening for the utter nonsense that certain celebrities came up with perhaps?
I discussed this the other day in the context of tourists swimming where crocodiles had just been. The lodge owners had repeatedly warned the international visitors about crocodiles, as did the lodge staff. But they still went swimming…
Afterwards I put it to the owners that perhaps these people don’t know that crocodiles eat people.
Whether it’s politics, theology or crocodiles, we could be in it a lot deeper than people think given the low levels of information in a celebrity obsessed era.
Thank you, for your defense of the truth. As an American, I see this stuff scrolling through the channels of my television all the time. It’s a kind of syncretism of the “American Dream” with the Gospel of Christ, and too many fall prey to it in weak moments.
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
All of this wonderful teaching and all that is being asked for is a mere donation of $45.
Ooooo I claim authority over my bank balance and while I am at it I claim authority to grow angel wings and float on fluffy clouds.
Oh that and Bono saying that uses can be defeated with comedy. Think I will use my angel wings to transport me to the middle east and eradicate terrorism in the region while I am at it.
Rev Alexis Campbell is not listed in the Church of Scotland Yearbook, either as a Parish Minister or an Ordained Local Minister; I think you have been had.
It might be that it is Alex Campbell. Just taking it from the e-mail address. Why would anyone lie about being a C of S minister!
He said it was actually Frank Campbell
I suspect it was her husband Frank, using the e-mail address….thats the only explanation that makes sense. I don’t like to think of people lying or making things up….
I was sure when I read the original comment under Alexis’ name that the next comment was Frank saying he posted under his wife’s name.
Must have missed that….it doesn’t appear to be there…although I am sure that is what happened.
Dear David, I have no idea why this no brainer and in my eyes not worth a 1 minute conversation is being discussed.
In less than 3 minutes with the reading of 1st Corinthians chapter 4 verses 10 -14 and watching Crefflo himself in the flesh in this 1 minute 30 second video I post here, You can see for yourself how much of a no brainer this Crefflo disaster is :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxeTjrckl0
Lord have mercy on us all if those who are beyond blind, thinks this Crefflo prosperity gospel has anything to do with you.
Dear David, I have no idea why this no brainer and in my eyes not worth a 1 minute conversation is being discussed.
In less than 3 minutes with the reading of 1st Corinthians chapter 4 verses 10 -14 and watching Crefflo himself in the flesh in this 1 minute 30 second video I post here, You can see for yourself how much of a no brainer this Crefflo disaster is :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxeTjrckl0
Lord have mercy on us all if those who are beyond blind, thinks this Crefflo prosperity gospel has anything to do with you.
I think the person referred to is the Rev Frank Campbell. His wife is Alexis. He is a minister in the Borders. He explained it in the original post about Mr Dollar.
Thank you, David, for speaking out so bluntly and to the point. It’s refreshing to hear! God bless your work!
Carry on speaking for us, brother
Thanks for bringing this issue out into the open. When it comes to issues like this my non Christian friends show more spiritual awareness in seeing through this drivel than some believers. Thank God that common grace is still at work to help people see this trash for what it is. In a strange twist they bring glory to God and heap shame upon these guys.
Creflo Dollar Ministries 13the April 2016 – ‘ Dollar says: ‘ the number one reason people don’t receive from God is that they don’t operate in their authority – let me show you how powerful you are….. We need to exercise that authority and start walking around like little Jesus’.
This is sheer blasphemy, typical prosperity teaching which puts self at the centre of everything – its all about me! Kenneth Copeland (a friend of Dollar) uses a similar idea in that he says that we are all ‘little gods’ – we even have the power to control the weather! I don’t know how a Church of Scotland minister can fall for such rubbish, though I am by no means singling out the Kirk. Why partner with Creflo Dollar ministries, what do you hope to achieve from it? Blessings’ for your church? There are surely much more worthy Christian charities in this country which could do with your support. It grieves me to think that there are probably untold millions crossing the atlantic propping up these charlatans. My mum is a long standing Christian, she loves and serves the Lord every day of her life. Despite receiving prayer ministry from trusted Christian friends, she is still suffering from crippling arthritis. What is Dollar’s answer to this – she is not using her ‘God given authority’? I believe that God can and does heal, deliver, and that he provides for His children according to their needs. There may well be things in our lives which are blocking such blessings; however these people take Biblical truths and twist them out of all proportion for their own rotten gain. We talk of politicians, bankers and sports stars and their extravagance and corruptness. These prosperity teachers are in another financial league altogether – but its ok because they are supposedly furthering the Kingdom of God?
To the minister mentioned above and to Destiny Church, I say wake up and smell the coffee, you are being deceived by the father of lies and you are in turn deceiving others. One day you may stand before the Lord and he will say to you ‘depart from me I never knew you’.
The Ten-Trillionaire Televangelist
By Robert Winkler Burke
Book #4 of In That Day Teachings
Copyright 4/26/2009 http://www.inthatdayteachings.com
When he drew a boundary for Sea,
posted a sign that said no trespassing,
(The Message Proverbs 8:29)
One day a televangelist appeared on the scene,
He was handsome, charismatic, lean, not mean.
He said, Hello World! Give me your tithes!
He broadcast a wild show, it was quite a ride.
To one hundred-forty nations his show was sent,
From one hundred-forty nations came tithes’ ten percent.
At that time the world’s income was one hundred trillion,
And, by golly, he received ten-thousand billion!
Ten-thousand billion was his wonderful income,
Which was ten trillion, give or take a million.
As he had more cash than any known government,
Ambassadors from the US and China were sent.
Please help us, oh televangelist, they asked of him,
Would you buy us an aircraft carrier, or moon landing?
Our nations are broke, said ambassadors of the world,
Build us a freeway, or school, or tractor for field!
All the world’s excess cash has gone to you,
What, oh great man of God, with it will you do?
The world was quiet that day, waiting to hear,
What the richest man of God would say sincere.
But he said, Sorry to inform you, oh ambassadors,
I spent it all on myself, and perfume for my whores.
Did you think I’m not subject to the maxim,
Power corrupts: It did with my tithe taxing!
Don’t blame me for wasting all the world’s wealth,
To stop waste, oh world, keep your money yourself!
But honestly and quite frankly, since the world is so cotton-picking gullible,
I’ve decided to now become the world’s first quadrillion evangelist lovable!
But the government said, Well then, since you’ve given us the ax,
We declare that you’re a business, not church, and owe us great tax!
But the televangelist took off for new planets in his private starship rocket,
Proving no one could stop this televangelist on Earth from lining his pocket.
I Bought the Broadcasters’ Philosopher’s Stone
By Robert Winkler Burke
Book #4 of In That Day Teachings
Copyright 3/5/09 http://www.inthatdayteachings.com
The Philosopher’s Stone, the Philosopher’s Stone,
It will help you preach so exquisite well!
The Philosopher’s Stone, the Philosopher’s Stone,
It will help your Christian message sell!
My visitor was a short black man,
In a worn-out black suit,
Black bowler, black tie, black shirt,
His voice spoke deep in truth.
You sir, he said, want to be a broadcast preacher,
Am I not right?
You want donations to fund your airtime costs,
Who needs a fight?
You need the Philosopher’s Stone,
And all things will turn out well,
In my black bag I’ve got one here,
Which you will buy, I will sell.
Now hold on here! Sir, I said,
You are quite bold and imprudent,
I know a little bit of history,
Not nothing I learned as student.
The Philosopher’s Stone is mythical,
A story from day’s gone past,
A magic elixir potion that makes,
Victorious solutions fast.
There is no stone as you describe,
Don’t think you can sell one to me,
I don’t believe you or that bag,
Though what’s in it, I’d like to see.
The little black man smiled and said,
You’ll see what’s in my black bag soon enough,
But first, let’s get your eyes open,
And look at broadcast religion in buff.
The cold, hard, naked truth is that,
Broadcasting sermons costs many millions,
Not like your church’s paltry donations,
But done right, you might make billions!
Billions? I asked. He said, That’s right,
Billions with a “B!”
Just sit on your hands for a minute,
And listen to me.
Whatever you preach, I don’t care,
You need to sell a certain, crafty solution,
Whatever you preach, say it has power,
By viewer’s donation, of a mystic potion!
You’ll have to make viewers believe,
Just a monthly check or credit card withdrawal,
Will fix whatever ills their soul,
Body, spirit or sap enterprise withal.
Without saying so, you will sell, my friend,
The witchy-magic Philosopher’s Stone,
It is the unspoken thing you sell, they buy,
That will fund your jet, bank and ritzy home.
Now here’s the deal, my time is short,
So let’s get to the quick,
You buy this stone in my bag so viewers,
Fund its dream of instant fix.
You don’t ever give them this stone or copy,
Or anything like that,
You keep your stone hidden in dark back office,
To work like magic hat.
I was beginning to get the picture,
And I grinned like a lusty fool,
So that’s how they do it! I laughed,
My competition has this tool?
Almost all of them, now you see, my salesman said,
Have a certified Philosopher’s Stone copy,
As you will in a minute, after signing here,
To make your broadcast work righteous happy.
What does the contract say? I asked,
And what does this dear stone look like?
It says, he said, you sell your soul to Satan,
And you will be rich as rich is right.
I signed the paper, shirt soaked with sweat,
I couldn’t wait to see this great Philosopher’s Stone,
Which has made me richer than I dreamed:
It is a fist clinched tight, but for middle finger bone.
The skeleton middle finger points straight, defiant,
Giving the universal sign,
Man deluded thinks he rules and gets things perfect,
Donate to my program fine!
I preach God is certainly sovereign,
And can do whatever He wants,
But that’s not how I get donations,
I say, YOU wear fate’s pants!
Donate to my gospel,
My sacred message true,
And you will have real quick,
Your dreams all come through!
It doesn’t matter what I preach,
Possessing, as I do, my broadcasters’ Philosopher’s Stone,
Bottom line I sell fearless greed,
Just donate to any like me, and what’s mine is in your home!
Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copland – all cut from the same cloth. Frauds, charlatans, and the enemy within. Keep up the good work David.
An American’s comments on the ‘prosperity Gospel’:
http://www.wordonfire.org/resources/article/the-dangers-of-the-prosperity-gospel/373/
I would be interested to see whether Andrew Owen and his Destiny colleagues have the spiritual and moral courage, humility and common courtesy to respond to the wide range of concerns expressed here. I am however not holding my breath. From experience, accountability does not appear to figure as a high priority for Destiny Church. However, Creflo Dollar and Destiny Church will have to answer to the Living God.
As a former ministry leader at Destiny Church now attending the Church of Scotland i have this to say,…….I left Destiny to get away from the crazy prosperity gospel, now i see this guy waxing lyrical about it from the C.O.S. To say i am angry is an understatement. A partner with Creflo Dollar ministries?? Is it just me or should this guy be investigated?. As for Destiny Church , Glasgow…….if half the rumours i am hearing from there are true, then Destiny church is a house built on sand, which is about to collapse and sink. Nice one David, you have no idea how much i am fed up with Gullible Christians wanting to appear to be non – judgemental. thats how these cowboy pastors operate, in fact….they rely on it. May peace be with you through Christ Jesus.
As a former ministry leader at Destiny i have this to say, ……..I left Destiny to get away from this Gospel of Greed(where poor people are frowned upon for well……being poor generally). I now attend the Church of Scotland where thankfully, the theology is safe and the people are generally less crazy, only to find that this prosperity gospel crazyness has infected the C.O.S. To say i am angry at this guy, a minister who is accountable to God and his congregation and should know better is putting it mildly. Also, “A partner with Creflo Dollar ministries” ??. As for Destiny Church, Glasgow……..if half the accounts i am hearing from there these days are true, then Destiny Church is truly a house built on sand. It will collapse and sink without a solid foundation. That foundation being Christ Jesus. David, I thank God that i am not the only person on this planet that is fed up with gullible Christians claiming that speaking up is being judgemental and un – Christ like, because thats exactly what these cowboy pastor/preacher types are counting on. A clever little scam from the devil himself( and i aint the type to see demons under every bush). Peace be with you in Christ.
David,
Thank you for your strong words against this cancerous blight. We, in Australia have our own brand of hucksters, who have spread world wide, and who preach that spiritual wealth is measured in currency.
They show no evidence of understanding the character of God, and show no reverence towards Him, and use the precious name of Jesus as a talisman of some kind.
Keep going, David. If Christ was abused (Prince of Demons etc) so also be those who follow him according to God’s word.
Keep up the good work. I’m praying that you by God’s grace will continue to be be faithful and keep the flag of truth and grace flying.
Brian Williams
David
Irrespective of our differing views on religion, as a former Methodist and son of still practising Methodists, I am rather inclined to believe that if there were a God, he would dwell more contentedly in the house of the Free Church than that of Creflo Dollar!
These evangelists do the church no service in the face of an increasingly ambivalent youth culture that see the greed of the rapacious finance industry through the same lens.
Having dismissed the God of these charlatans, you simply have one more to go, nevertheless well done.
Jon -have you ever thought that the counterfeit actually points to the real? You don’t give up on money/sex or love because of counterfeits…you just seek the real thing….the choice is not between false gods and emptiness….it is because false gods, emptiness and Christ!
A further thought occurred to me, which is not dissimilar to that posted earlier by David. The Creflo Dollar horror is actually an opportunity for faithful Christians. After all, it was in part Martin Luther’s biblically-informed moral outrage responding to the Creflo Dollar of his day which was the catalyst for the Reformation. History repeats itself…but nobody listens…
I have a question, and I am surprised that no one else has asked it.
Does the Destiny Church get a cut of the profits from Dollar’s “ministry”? If so what percentage, does anyone know? Could any of the Destiny leadership answer?
If they do get a cut then all becomes clear…………..
I think this is highly unlikely. The deal is that the host church pay half his costs of coming here which will be about £20,000. Destiny will have to pay this. There will be an offering which will be used to cover this. Dollar and his family will need to be put up in hotels. I can remember when one televangelist was paying £3,500 a night to stay at the Lanesborough in London. It will be interesting to see where Dollar stays when he is here. These “ministries” work by finding “partners”: people who make regular monthly donations and make other donations on request for special appeals – like the plane. Creflo Dollar Ministries has a UK charity. It is a limited company and you can see the trustees here: https://companycheck.co.uk/company/03335837/CREFLO-DOLLAR-MINISTRIES/directors-secretaries
His UK Charity accounts can be found here:
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithoutPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1064133&SubsidiaryNumber=0
His income has been on the slide for a few years, but is still just under £400,000 per year. Most of which goes back to the US to pay for mission work or television broadcasts.
Creflo Dollar UK Ministries annual accounts for 2014 are here:
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends33%5C0001064133_AC_20141231_E_C.pdf
and show that they recruited a further 1022 partners during that year in the UK.
One of the trustees is Hanna Pease, co pastor of a church in Bradford. When I visit their web site http://www.elshaddai.org.uk/ I immediately get asked if I want to become a partner! It seems this is catching.
Interesting to note that the accounts state that donations are down due to increasing economic hardship of their supporters. This suggests that their prosperity gospel doesn’t actually work. If people believe it works then showing them that statement in the accounts might wake them up.
So back to the original question: what does the host church get out of it? I guess profile; a nice glitzy event to invite members to. Above all it makes people feel they are part of something significant, and that is what a lot of this is about. People want to feel that the work and money they are putting into the church is having an effect for God in some way. As someone else has posted they may be building on sand. I don’t know anything about Destiny other than what they say about themselves. The number of people being converted at their meetings in a year should really mean that they had a bigger church than they currently do. I am not saying they are lying, but if their numbers are correct then they are not able to retain these converts, which suggests there is something wrong.
Interesting to see a similar pattern of decreasing income in Destiny’s own returns:
http://www.oscr.org.uk/charities/search-scottish-charity-register/charity-details?number=SC020228
And, it seems, Destiny may be in breach of charity law by not recording on their website (anywhere that I can find) that it is in fact a registered charity:
http://www.oscr.org.uk/charities/managing-your-charity/trustee-duties/publicising-charitable-status
Odd.
Actually, there’s that many “Destiny”s on the OSCR site, I missed the one that’s linked on the Edinburgh Destiny site which points to the Glasgow address:
http://www.oscr.org.uk/search-oscr/charity-details?number=SC017898
Slightly different numbers there. For the rest:
+ http://www.oscr.org.uk/search-oscr?keyword=Destiny&charitytype=0&page=1&perpage=20&orderby=relevance&orderdir=asc&stype=reg#results
Destiny Church has issued a statement:
https://www.facebook.com/PastorAndrewOwen/posts/1027583123990605
“A statement regarding Dr. Creflo A. Dollar’s visit:
“Andrew Owen the Senior pastor of Destiny Churches international says that we are very much looking forward to welcoming Dr. Creflo Dollar to Scotland in the next few months. Scotland has a tradition of warmly welcoming visitors from many diverse backgrounds and welcomes all and any to come and listen to Dr Dollar when the church meets at the Armadillo Clyde auditorium, the Aberdeen AECC or our own Gorgie campus Edinburgh.”
I find this a disturbing and dishonest statement. The question is not whether Scotland welcomes visitors from diverse backgrounds but what kind of preachers Destiny welcomes. Would they welcome a Muslim, a liberal, a Calvinist to preach? Inviting someone to preach at your church implies that you agree with what they are teaching. To divert attention from that by playing the ‘we are a welcoming people’ (and those who don’t want him to come are not) is a dishonest playing with words.
David, I am based in Western Australia. Last year I walked into a destiny church in Edinburgh on a Sunday. Within 2 minutes I knew what I was in for but decided to ride the whole service out. So I wrote them last night sending them the same message which you posted on your blog commentary last night advising that within 3 minutes they could see the no brainer situation this is.
Here is the Destiny Edinburgh church reply to my email (they did reply and for that I am grateful – not for the email content though !) :
Hi Carmelo
Thanks for your email. I hope you enjoyed your time in Edinburgh when you were here. Thanks for visiting Destiny.
We have found that most people who have concerns over Creflo Dollar’s ministry haven’t listened extensively to his teaching and so the context is limited. We’d encourage you to listen to some of his recent messages in full if you haven’t already.
Kind regards
Destiny Church Edinburgh
Leith centre – 12 Casselbank Street, Edinburgh, EH6 5HA, UK
Gorgie centre – 52 Gorgie Road, Edinburgh, EH11 2NB, UK
I did reply – asking them to do what they had avised me of.
Um – 16 years of studying the prosperity gospel , I think I know what Crefflo’s false gospel is all about !
from Western australia – we pray for you and this fiasco
I dont believe it . You know what, i emailed Pete Anderson (Pastor Of Destiny, Gorgie) about a week ago with the same complaint and guess what………my email from him(and it was him) almost said the same thing word for word. They must have a rack of pre – prepared statements for conundrums such as this. Dont believe a word of it, these guys are thoroughly indoctrinated up to the hilt. Thanks for posting this.
Hi Michael, The response we received from the Destiny church is not a bad one really. i think it would be a good idea if they actually did what they advise us of and that is to examine creflflo’s teaching. Lets pray they seriousl;y do as if they do so they will see how it is no gospel at all. In Christ.
1 I’m a little conflicted about this. Why? Because I’d not heard of him before this farrago, nor Destiny Church and I’m not sure whether all this is oxygen of publicity. The “teflon coated” statement from the church may suggest, they may not bothered by any adverse comments and are likely to see themselves as pioneers, and opposition, to them is evidence of god at work amongst them and through them. No doubt it will be the subject for their prayer “warrior” team(s) as it is likey to be seen as satanic opposition. I’ve heard calvanism described as satanic, in a “traditional” church setting.
2 I wonder if someone has traced the history of this “movement.” Other commentators here have mentioned names such as Haig, Hinn, Copeland, Jakes and others. So non of this is new. But most of the time in the UK it is embraced in isolated pockets but can be going on by private viewing in homes of congregants in any church. Now it has been brought into the open by Dollar’s terrestial appearance in Scotland. (Is that his real name?)
3 I’m not sanguine about this, as it is false teaching, based on one or more heresies, such as
– a denial of the Trinity (this is solely the age of the Spirit)
– there wasn’t a “fall”
– an overealisation of idea that we can have all of the Kingdom Now,
– that there is physical healing in the atonement.
– old testament blessings and curses continue today for christians
– lack of your faith prevents all or any of the blessings (faith becomes a “work”)
– a sharp categorisation between what is defined as “religious” which is equated with legalism, compared to New Testament, Spirit Annointed men of “power for the hour.”
– in a lot of it, Jesus is little mentioned or not at all, and frequently the teaching is “spiriualised” common sense, for generations who don’t know better and those that should
4 But what attracts people? There are many reasons emanating from the “fall”, which are basically from the “idol factory ” of our hearts. But a more challenging one could be that they want to see the reality of God acting in their lives..
5 George Mueller’s life of financial dependence on God and him seeing the reallity of God acting is deeply challenging. It is the polar opposite of any “freeflowing dollar” ministries.
6 Jesus challenged the rich young ruler when wealth was seen as a sign of God’s approval and blessing, and the disciples were aghast. Jesus today issues the same challenge to Dollar and his disciples.
Hello Geoff,
My understanding is that there has always been an element of this around in the charismatic churches in Scotland, but that it became more mainstream due to the publicity it gets from the “christian” TV channels who air this kind of material. It would be easy to get sucked into it if you have a poor level of education in theological issues. If you are not taught well you won’t be able to see the obvious problem that everyone else can see with the prosperity gospel and “name it and claim it” in general. If you are in a church environment where anything could potentially be OK then its easier still to get sidelined into this.
Destiny is not unlike a pyramid scheme or a franchise. If you look at the 1000 pastors they have been training in India what this is, is a course they go on (and I assume they have to make an offering of some kind to go on it). They are self selected. When they complete it they are able to go and start their own church, which will potentially give them a living – with some of that cash being returned to the central organisation. It is very different from any model of church we are used to.
The level of education of Destiny pastors in Scotland is a wee it suspect too. I don’t think ministers need a huge theological education, but I was surprised when one of them quoted “The Acts of [Pontius] Pilate” as evidence that Jesus had actually existed.
I suppose the main problem with these churches is that they are not presbyterian (even with a small p). They are run by leaders who lead and everyone else follows. There is no collective decision making by members (as in congregational or baptist churches) or no collective decision making by elders (as in presbyterian and some baptist and other churches, or even in more traditional Pentecostal churches). This is both a strength and a weakness, but generally a weakness.
Creflo “Cashflo” Dollar is a FALSE teacher with all capital letters! I actually have a recording of a message he delivered entitled: “Jesus Became God”. It is nothing more than heresy and in the words of Paul, “Doctrines of Demons”. Why people follow him is beyond me…except that they’ve been sent a strong delusion and are biblically illiterate and blind. None of the Word of Faith teachers such as Dollar, Joel Osteen, Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, T.D. Jakes, and many others, are authentic ministers of the gospel. They’re all fake and phony, and Christ is nowhere in their messages, and He is nowhere on their mind! Keep up the good work of exposing these false teachers because too many in the body of Christ are being hoodwinked and fooled by these major con-artists.
I am a foreigner and have now lived in Edinburgh for almost 10 years.
One thing that is common to most indigenous churches I have attended is the coldness towards strangers especially foreigners. One has to work hard to be accepted if you must become one of them. I have attended Church of Scotland and Free Church and the major difference then was that one used a hymnal and the other used a psalter. No follow up from either. I attended Destiny as well and although there was no follow up from the senior pastor I became very friendly with one of the leaders whom I was able to invite to stand with me in prayer when a compatriot was sick to the point of death at the WGH. To the glory of God that individual was healed and has since returned home. Although I stopped going to Destiny this particular elder sends me the occasional sms to check how I am doing.
I stopped going to Destiny because my wife and I agreed to start attending a church within our community. It is a small church offshoot of Episcopalian and although some were not as welcoming(or so we felt) we have settled quiet well and are at home. What surprised me at first was how on my second visit a gentleman gave me a book titled Grace Outpouring – blessing others through prayer by Roy Godwin. I read the book within the week and was impressed by the similarities of Roy’s ministry and what I had witnessed back home among Pentecostal/Charismatics. When I returned the book on the following Sunday the gentleman let me keep the copy because according to him the Holy Spirit had led him to give that copy to me. When I said to him that I could relate to the contents of the book and that I had actually witnessed God heal people after Christians prayed with them, another man who works as janitor at the hall we use for church was called so we could prove my claims. He had a chronic pain in one of his knees and after prayer the pain left and as far as I know he remains pain free after more than a year. He is a janitor at our church but he is not an active Christian and yet God healed him regardless.
To cut a long story short. The gentleman who gave me that book is a British national and is an (aeronautical?) engineer and is now praying for people and is witnessing God heal most after praying for them. I am not a minister myself (in the British sense of the word) but I do share the Gospel and pray with people.
The problem with Creflo Dollar is not all because of the prosperity gospel he teaches or once taught. That might be a part of it. Some of the rejection is because Creflo Dollar is a foreigner and people generally are territorial and will use any excuse to fight off any perceived ‘invasion’. Anyone who has done a little mission work will attest to this – people are wary of strangers. What might be problematic is to let a healthy terroritorial tendency degenerate to a point that we fail to function in the grace of God by fixating on the mistakes of others.
I might be in agreement with many of the ‘fears’ raised but I believe that Jesus was as clear as could be when he said to let the wheat and the tares grow together. We are to go out and sactter the seed and be aware that even for that which falls on good soil the enemy will go out while men sleep to sow tares. We can not be more craeful than Jesus Christ.
I was born, infant-baptised and confirmed within the Blantyre Mission founded by the famed Scottish missionary Dr David Livingstone. Felt there was more and joined the Charismatic/Pentecostal before moving to Edinburgh. The most welcoming were the African Charismatics but I wanted to fellowship with Scottish Christians. I have been to Baptist, CoS, Free Church and now attending an Evangelical Episcoplian church and the people are all loving regardless. Interestingly, it was the Jehovah’s Witness who paid me the most visits at home before I changed addresses and they are the most visible on the streets of Edinburgh.
Thanks Thoko…it’s good to hear from you…I’m sorry that your personal experience of indigenous churches is that you were not welcome. That is not true for everyone – and I doubt it was because of racism (although I accept it could have been). All I know is that in my own church there are people from 20 different countries and every continent.
I can however assure you that the rejection of Creflo Dollar has NOTHING to do with him being American or his race. It IS because he teaches a false gospel which is incredibly harmful to people of all races. I pray the Lords blessing on you…come and visit us some time in Dundee!
Dear David,
Thank you for your response.
It is interesting to note that you have so many nationalities in your congregation. I really appreciate your welcome and who knows may be one day I will come to Dundee and pay you a visit.
It would have been much easier if all rejection of Creflo Dollar would be boiled down to racism and false gospel. I do not wish to appoint myself his spokesman but I was impressed by his own admission that his previously held position on tithing specifically and blessings in general was in opposition to grace.
Between you and Creflo Dollar, you never know what role you might play to shape him (or anyone) to prevent further damage to all races if damage is indeed what Creflo Dollar is causing. Ananias was an unknown quantity yet through his ministry the apostle Paul was launched. So too was Apollos shaped by Priscila and Aquila. I do not know much about Appollos but it is evident that he was a substantial teacher whose influence was almost equal to that of Paul.
God bless you too.
Thoko,
YOu would be very welcome. It may interest you to know that I wrote Creflo Dollar and also his organisation – both completely ignored me. Dollar is a fraud who is using the Gospel to make money – I don’t say that lightly and I will be writing more about it later…so watch this space!
Dear Thoko,
I must admit myself coming from Australia to Scotland last year and visiting various churches I felt welcoming was not a strength of many churches I visited.
In fact I would say terrible. Sorry Scotland as I do love you and apart from Ned Kelly wish we had our very own William Wallace who painted his face blue and rode around on horse back shouting freedom !
Yet I have found the exact same thing in my very own nation of Australia. For some churches no matter what denomination, they are either terrible at welcoming or they are very good at it.
I personally feel terrible when I get bailed up after a church service by someone wanting to talk to me which happens often when instead in the corner of my eye I can see someone who has never visted before.
Thoko can you please make comment on this video I attach here:
I ask you a direct question – Is this content of this you tube clip I attach, is it of the Lord Jesus Christ or is this of Satan ?
I look forward to your reply:
Dear Carmelo Bonanno,
Thanks for taking time to respond to my comment.
1 – I presume the video was shot earlier than Creflo’s visit to Scotland. I attended Creflo’s talk in Edinburgh last Sunday and nothing like that happened. Creflo Dollar admitted that his previous position on tithing was Mosaic therefore in direct conflict with salvation by grace. Like I indicated in my post I attended Destiny Edinburgh regularly and they always put a disclaimer on collections that are done – none is obliged to give any money in the collection. It appears to me that somehow Creflo Dollar has adjusted his excessive position on money as depicted in this video and has begun incorporating such feedback in his sermons as he taught that there is no way someone saved by grace could be cursed by not tithing. However, I feel feedback from such reviews as the video above shows has played a part in his new stance on how one obtains favour with God.
2 – although terrible welcomes are common in churches they are not normal and I find them inexcusable. Remember others welcomed and dined with angels because of their generosity.
3 – I am personally not convinced about the way the prosperity gospel has been and continues to be preached. I have never been convinced that those already blessed need works to avoid curses – what God has blessed no one can curse. Only our unbelief or ignorance causes us to remain cursed. Regardless of how much I disagree with anyone on their interpretation or misinterpretation of scripture I try not to let that bring the worst out of me. If anyone within Scotland really felt it was wrong for Creflo Dollar to come to Scotland I believe the best and mature thing to do was to welcome him and in love challenge any perceived error. Work with the church that invited him in constructive dialogue.
4 – in my view it is because of terrible welcomes rooted not in racial differences but denominationalism and a strong class culture among other issues that upcoming churches like Destiny are being forced to work with foreign missionaries in spite of brilliant theological scholarship in the British isles. The church pews in the British Isles are becoming empty not because foreigners do not feel welcome. Rather it is because the indeginous population who should be feeling welcome and filling those pews feel rejected by those who should be loving them and leading them to Jesus Christ.
Thoko, Thank you for your well thought out reply. Many many points you have raised there. – Do you mind if I ask you the original direct question that I asked you in the first place in reference to Crefflo dancing all over the dollar bills in the video I posted – Is it a work of the Lord or is it of Satan ? A wonderful theologian once said – you may serve the devil or you may serve the Lord – but you gonna have to serve somebody ?
My own view is Dollar dancing on dollars is childish and likely to cause offence. But that is entirely depending on my socialisation.
There is no scripture in the Bible regarding how we should treat physical currency and I would be interested to learn from you.
Thoko, Actually there are scriptures that do tell us on how to treat physical currency (as good stewards) yet that is a side step. Perhaps if I lay out a platform this might help you to answer the actual question given you. In Romans chapter 8 we are told clearly that those who belong to Christ – that in them dwells the spirit of Christ, This is the same spirit that raised the dead mutilated body of Christ. I imagine you would agree that a man of God would be lead by the spirit of Christ during a church service, especially after praying, seeking and asking the Lord before and even during the church service. So again I ask this same question – Is this content of this you tube clip I attach, is it of the Lord Jesus Christ or is this of Satan ?
I look forward to your reply and thanks for your patience
In Christ
Dear Carmelo,
The text below is uplifted verbatim from one of several sites that have posted what is circulating on the net as “The Unchanging Law of Judgement”. The back story for me is I copied it to my wall on Facebook two years ago and it popped up as a memory today in time for your query.
I agree with you that we do have the Spirit that raised Christ’s mutilated body from the grave and I still insist the Bible neither restricts nor encourages dancing on money during a public worship service or in private. It is entirely a matter of one’s social context whether one is offended with such acts and for me really it looks childish and very likely to offend some. Dancing on a dollar bill does not depreciate its value. You can prove this very easily. Get some cash, dance on it and use it to for your grocery shopping. A soiled dollar bill buys the same stuff as a brand new dollar bill.
Regarding stewardship the Bible is clear that our attitude in how we obtain money and use it in our lives and the lives of others is what is crucial. I believe that is where the “prosperity movement” has come short. What they teach to get money and how they use the proceeds of their scheming is what can be subjected to the light of scripture and has been found wanting.
To answer your question direclty – dancing on money is neither of the Lord Jesus Christ nor of Satan. No one will lose their salvation for dancing on money. No one will be saved for not dancing on money.
Quote
The Unchanging Law of Judgement
With what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. —Matthew 7:2
This statement is not some haphazard theory, but it is an eternal law of God. Whatever judgment you give will be the very way you are judged. There is a difference between retaliation and retribution. Jesus said that the basis of life is retribution— “with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” If you have been shrewd in finding out the shortcomings of others, remember that will be exactly how you will be measured. The way you pay is the way life will pay you back. This eternal law works from God’s throne down to us (see Psalm 18:25-26).
Romans 2:1 applies it in even a more definite way by saying that the one who criticizes another is guilty of the very same thing. God looks not only at the act itself, but also at the possibility of committing it, which He sees by looking at our hearts. To begin with, we do not believe the statements of the Bible. For instance, do we really believe the statement that says we criticize in others the very things we are guilty of ourselves? The reason we see hypocrisy, deceit, and a lack of genuineness in others is that they are all in our own hearts. The greatest characteristic of a saint is humility, as evidenced by being able to say honestly and humbly, “Yes, all those, as well as other evils, would have been exhibited in me if it were not for the grace of God. Therefore, I have no right to judge.”
Jesus said, “Judge not, that you be not judged” (Matthew 7:1). He went on to say, in effect, “If you do judge, you will be judged in exactly the same way.” Who of us would dare to stand before God and say, “My God, judge me as I have judged others”? We have judged others as sinners— if God should judge us in the same way, we would be condemned to hell. Yet God judges us on the basis of the miraculous atonement by the Cross of Christ.
End quote.
Have a blessed Sunday,
Thoko.
Thoko, I guess you and I can beg to differ in regards to wether Crefflo dancing on money is of the Lord or of Satan.
I personally believe the latter and am 100% certain of it in my mind.
In regards to judging. As far as I understand the scripture it is telling us, not tot judge as hypocrites. We must judge with righteouss judgement.
You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?
We are told do not judge, then a few verses later we see Jesus saying do not throw your pearls before swine.
Hang on was that a judgement just made there ? How do we know if they are swine or not unless we judge ?
Oh I had better not park my car here, coz these dudes look shadey. Oh no I just made another judgement !
The scripture says take the log out of your own eye and then you can see clearly to take the speck of dust out of your brothers eye.
I personally danced the word of faith gospel for 8 years and Praise the Lord Jesus Christ one day my eyes where opened and I saw it was none other than another gospel.
So now the word faith prosperity log has been removed from my eye I can see clearly to take the word faith prosperity doctrine of devils litte speck out of another brothers eye.
Well it’s been nice talking to you and if possible and you have the time have a look at this great teaching by Justin Peters – It’s called a call for discernment which really shows the questionable side to the dangerous, ludicrous and damaging word faith prosperity movement.
p.s: In regards to suggesting that christians sit down and discuss these issues peaceably with our dear Crefflo. May I suggest to you that many have attempted to since the 1980’s with no success.
In Chirst
Dear Carmelo,
Thank you so much for going your way to accomodate and engage me in this matter. However, you do not have to worry about me regarding health and wealth movement because even with my little Bible knowledge I was able to see through the lies and never fell for it. I have watched some of Justin Peters’ videos on his Youtube channel too.
God bless you,
Thoko.
oops sorry Thoko – I forgot to attach the teaching which exposes the word faith preachers by Justin Peters – called a call for discernment – (Hope that’s so.k with you David, for me to attach the link here)
I so so so recommend this for you Thoko :