Some reflections on yesterdays horrific attack in Sydney – my latest article on Christian Today….
A pogrom on Bondi Beach
‘Globalise the Intifada’ they chant and sing. Well now we can safely say that the Intifada has been globalised. Australia, once one of the safest countries in the world for Jews, has become one of the most dangerous. On December 14, two gunmen opened fire on a Jewish Hanukkah celebration on Bondi Beach, Sydney. Fifteen people have been killed, including two rabbis, a 10-year-old child called Matilda, and a survivor of the Holocaust.
The tragedy and shock are immense. I spoke this morning with a young Jewish friend who has been traumatised by the whole event. Little wonder. The stories of the victims are heartbreaking.
Holocaust survivor and Ukrainian, Alex Kleytman died while trying to shield his wife Larisa after hearing shots ring out. “We were standing and suddenly came the ‘boom boom’, and everybody fell down. At this moment he was behind me and at one moment he decided to go close to me. He pushed his body up because he wanted to stay near me,” Larisa told The Australian newspaper.
Rabbi Eli Schlanger was one of the organisers of the Chanukah event. He was a local rabbi having been a chaplain in the Bondi community for 18 years. He wrote to Prime Minister Anthony Albanese in September of this year pleading with him not to “betray the Jewish people and not to betray G-d himself.” He was referring to the Australian government’s change of foreign policy to recognise Palestine as an independent state – a change which many believe came about because of Hamas and because of growing pressure from the increasing number of Muslims in Australia. Schlanger leaves behind a wife and young children.
All of this is so desperately sad. But it is not surprising. Although Australia was one of the most welcoming nations to the Jewish people, times have changed. The Jews arrived here with the arrival of the First Fleet in 1788 – where there were at least eight Jewish convicts. Over the next 60 years around 800 more arrived – mostly from the working-class areas of London. Free Jewish settlers started coming in the 1820s. By 1901 there were 15,000 Jews mostly in Sydney and Melbourne.
Today, Australia’s Jewish population is approximately 120,000, with 99,956 identifying as Jewish by religion in the 2021 census, though estimates suggest a higher number due to underreporting. The community is centred in Melbourne (46%) and Sydney (39%).After the Second World war thousands of Holocaust survivors came, with the result that apart from Israel, Australia had the highest per capita Holocaust survivor population. I think of that when I visit the Jewish Museum in Sydney and am proud of my adopted land. Which is why it was shocking to witness a couple of years ago an anti-Israel demonstration in Sydney which provoked outcry at the time because it had reportedly included chants of ‘gas the Jews’ – NSW police later said it was ‘where’s the Jews’, but this is hardly less intimidating. Jewish people were advised to stay away. Since then, antisemitism – in universities, in the media and on the streets – has risen enormously, culminating in this evil and shameful day for Australia.
Brendan O’Neill in an excellent article in the Spectator summed it up well. He wrote: “I was honoured to give talks about anti-Semitism at synagogues in Sydney and Melbourne last year. And every Jew I spoke to – every one of them – said the same thing: ‘Why aren’t people taking anti-Jewish sentiment more seriously?’“These good Aussies were crying out for the attention of polite society. They were begging politicians to take a firmer stand on Jew hatred. They were in pieces over the liberal media’s frothing obsession with Israel and Zionism. ‘When they spread hate about Zionists, they’re spreading hate about me,’ a lady in Sydney told me.“And they were ignored. Worse, they were written off as ‘Zios’ who were ‘weaponising anti-Semitism’ to ‘silence public debate’. They could see what was coming. They know from their people’s painful history that it never ends with bigoted words. They know violence always bubbles up from the cesspit of Jewphobia. And yet, shamefully, their cries were disregarded, their warnings unheeded.”
Somewhat presciently the former deputy Prime Minister, John Anderson, released an interview he did with another politician, Julian Lesser, two days before the massacre. It is well worth watching. Lesser, as an Australian Jew, explains that there are three types of antisemitism growing in Australia – that of the Far Right, the Progressive Left (think the Greens), and their strange alliance with the growing Islamist movement. The latter hide behind the shield of this just being ‘anti-Israel’. Sadly, I have seen evidence of all three on social media in the past 24 hours. People seeking to excuse the actions by Gaza, or warning that their great fear is Islamophobia, or claiming that this was a Mossad plot bravely spoiled by a Muslim tackling the Pakistani Mossad agents!
Speaking of the hero. Ahmed al Ahmed is a 43-year-old fruit shop owner who was captured on film getting out of his car and tackling one of the gunmen – being shot himself, before taking the gun off him. It was an incredible act of bravery and as my Uber driver said to me this afternoon, I hope he never has to buy another beer for the rest of his life! The Israeli government and the local synagogue have also praised this Muslim for saving Jewish lives.
But even that is being politicised. We were immediately being told by the usual suspects that even if the gunmen were Muslim, the attack had nothing to do with Islam. Equally we were told that because the hero is Muslim, this proves it had nothing to do with Islam. The logic is flawed. The hero was acting as a brave human being seeking to protect others. By contrast, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation says two Islamic State flags was found in a car linked to the two gunmen, and that Australian intelligence previously interviewed one of them over alleged ties to the terrorist group.
The reality is that while most Muslims would abhor and condemn the actions taken by the terrorists, there are far too many in this world who will either celebrate it or quietly think that the Jews had it coming. Even sadder, there are other non-Muslims in the West who will share the same thought. The rise of antisemitism in the West, and especially in Australia, is chilling.
The Australian government has just announced that it will strengthen gun laws, in my view a welcome move, but one that is just a sticking plaster approach which does nothing to deal with the gaping wound of antisemitism. When Jewish children have to go to schools with armed guards and people can freely chant on the streets ‘death to the Jews’, the problem is not really slack gun laws. And the solution is not really politicians and others offering their thoughts and prayers.
Hanukkah is a holiday which we are told ‘emphasizes joy, family, and defiance against assimilation or persecution’. The Jews have been familiar with persecution for thousands of years. As Christians we owe a great deal to the Jews – and it is our responsibility to stand with the Jewish people.
For now, let me leave you with the words of Rabbi Jonathan Sacks: “Chanukah is about the freedom to be true to what we believe without denying the freedom of those who believe otherwise. It’s about lighting our candle, while not being threatened by or threatening anyone else’s candle.”
And the words of King David: “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: ‘May those who love you be secure. May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadel” (Psalm 122:6).
New Life – Letters to a Post Christian Nation -7 – The Jews in Australia
Why Anti-Semitism Matters in the British Election
Will Tommy Robinson put ‘Christ back into Christmas’? CT
I’ll add an AMEN to this !
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Your argument would have much more force if you considered global tensions. People are having to live in hellish military conditions in many parts of the world – due to cruelty, greed, power lust , etc, etc. You are right that we have lost our bearings. There needs to be much more compassion between groups globally. One way to do this is via religion but the fact that International Law is being broken by powerful nations needs addressing at the global level. Churches and religious groups taking sides does not help. There are many faults leading to this hate.
Thanks David.
In my view, unless western governments develop a backbone in their treatment of Islamists Jews, moderate Moslems and the rest of us are going to suffer.
The bravery of the Moslem gentleman is probably a mercy. Without him the image of Moslems would have been very bleak.
The problem is tmoderate Moslems find it difficult to defend their moderation. They can only do so by ignoring or putting improbable interpretations on the violence passages in the Koran. I suspect that is why the Islamists win for they are interpreting the Koran more honestly and the moderates know this.
Out of their own mouths they claim to have predicted it was inevitable. Tragic that Zionists actions around the world have now contributed to the deaths of more Jews.
Yes, tragic that children, men and women, even elderly Jews who survived persecution by Nazi Germany have paid a price for Israeli activities and their meddling in foreign nations affairs.
Rabbi Eli Schlanger pleaded with the Australian authorities not to recognise the existence of the Palestinian people, invoking it as Gods will. Are we supposed to think that is a good thing to do?
Of course, what IS predictable is the Jews willingness to capitalise upon this tragedy and funnel the energy into trying to get Australia to capitulate to their demands.
Meanwhile, David Ben Gurion – quote: “The centre of the war is in Palestine, but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth.” and “The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside.”
End quote
Thank you for providing the evidence that anti-semitism is alive and well. You blame the Jews when Jews get killed. And for ‘capitalising’ when they are slaughtered! Sick…and perverse.
Reverend I think you may be missing the point that Joel is making. He is talking about Zionists rather than Jews. As my late husband (Scots Jew) used to say – Zionists are creating big problems for the Jewish people and innocents will die as a result. Zionists are the greatest antisemites you will encounter. My Jimmy used to say – we do these people no favours by not exposing and standing up to them.
I am sorry Glenda but you are really plumbing the depths when you accuse Jewish Zionists of being antisemites. It’s hard to take anything you say seriously when you argue in that way. It may be wrong to want to have a Jewish homeland – but it doesn’t make you anti-Jewish to do so!
I’m sorry you feel that way. We seem to disagree quite frequently.
You are wrong. I don’t know these people personally, but I am still saddened that they have died and by the circumstances. Children were shot at and killed, I hate children dying. I utterly and unreservedly condemn the killing of these people.
Yet half this article is hinged upon “prescient” expressions amid concerns of growing sentiment against Jews in general. They (and you) conveniently call this sentiment “antisemitism”, as if the sentiment exists in a vacuum, whilst conveniently never calling themselves Islamaphobic even though it is the exact same thing – a meaningless slur term, which prefers not to look at the ACTUAL source of the problem.
You yourself made an argument that association of Muslims to this killing, means this should be connected to Islam. Muslims and some others would call that Islamaphobic. You don’t I assume? Neither would I. I assume if you had something bad to say about Islam, you wouldn’t call it Islamaphobia? If I say that Islam is an awful, false religion, founded by deceivers which has caused a lot of destruction, you probably won’t correct me? Right? Well I HOPE not.
I say the same thing about Judaism and that is not wrong – YOU are wrong.
And I will say the same thing about Zionists – especially so-called “Christian” Zionists who really and truly can be sick and perverse, claiming good is bad and bad is good.
The 2 gunmen are are not even operating on the same scale as when people are connecting the actions of the self-proclaimed Jewish state to Jews (who actually support the actions of said state), yet you claim there is no connection to be made? You quote a woman from Sydney who claims that people who spread hate about Zionism are spreading hate about her – but there is no connection to be made?
This is exactly the kind of gaslighting that previous generations have accepted, but we no longer accept. It isn’t anti-semitism to use reason, objectivity, logic and to speak the truth instead of obfuscating.
No Islamaphobia and antisemitism are not exactly the same thing. Hatred of Jews is the oldest hatred in the world….You seem really confused. I am happy to disagree with both Islam and Judaism….what I am not happy to do is demand that Muslims and Jews be killed or a whole nation annhilated.
Yes of course there is a connection between those who demand the end of the Jewish state and those who kill Jews – in the same way that there is a connection between those who say that black Americans are all rapists and the KKK.
This is not gaslighting. Talk to the young Jewish woman I met yesterday who is terrified. Or the young Jewish man who has to sit in a class with a fellow student wearing Palestinian symbols and being lectured by tutors on how evil Israel is.
You are not using reason, objectivity or logic. And you are not speaking the truth. You are justifying the inexcusable and seeing the world only through the eyes of a Western progressive ideology…rather than the reality as it is…
You are claiming to be happy to disagree with both Islam and Judaism, but anyone who disagrees with Judaism is anti-Semitic. Anyone who links Judaism to the trouble in the middle East is anti-Semitic. Anyone who makes the sensible suggestion that western governments stop pandering to Israel is anti-Semitic. Anyone who points out the death and destruction and terrorism caused by Jews is anti-Semitic. Anyone who wants Zionist politicians out of their governments or wants Zionist money out of politics is antisemitic. Anyone who points out their constant stream of lies is antisemitic. Meanwhile you make statements such as Christians owing the Jews a great deal. You mean the Jews who “claim” to be descended from those who persecuted Christians for centuries?
You would permit almost ANY statement against Islam. You are absolutely gaslighting and you know it.
Then you claim the definition you are talking about is wanting all Jews dead, when I categorically denied it, yet I am still antisemitic? More gaslighting.
That is logic and reason. Nothing I said is untrue, yet you claim to be the one who upholds the truth. Pick one example from what I said and tell me how that one thing is untrue and I will prove you completely and utterly wrong using historical facts not vacuous veiled appeals to common tropes.
Are you willing to debate Zionist activity and terrorism over the last 150 years? I doubt it. Peoples distaste for Zionist activities is wholly justified and the SAME as their distaste for Islamic activities in their host countries. That’s why you have very little concern as Muslims moved into England facilitated by our government. Most people are not inherently bigoted or racist and are generally ignorant. When Muslims outnumber English students in school, when the health service is creaking under the weight and when London has an Islamist mayor, even normal people start paying attention to the warnings that “bigots” issued for decades.
Meanwhile “Christian” Zionists have granted Israel a license, funding and armed them to the teeth in the name of their God. Normal people didn’t really care so much, until they started being a nuisance. It is the exact same thing.
You can’t hide behind “Jew hatred is the oldest hate in the world” nonsense anymore. Where there is smoke there is fire. 1000+ ejections from formerly hospitable nations documented and you want us to conclude despite our modern example that it is all senseless and without cause, pure bigotry. The earliest example is Rome. In the 1st century, Rome thought the Jews good for business and invited them in, but what was the reason they were ejected again? Terrorism.
Nope – now people are asking, why do we put up with these false religious teachers who claim the darkness of Judaism and the light have any fellowship? Why are hate preaching Imams investigated for terrorism, while Jewish Rabbi’s can do it with impunity?
Christian Zionists are hypocrites and it looks like your days are numbered, at last.
‘Anyone who disagrees with Judaism’ is anti-semitic? That is a very weird and dangerous definition. I prefer the legal one here in Australia “Antisemitism is the demonstration of hostility, prejudice or discrimination against Jewish people or Judaism as a religious, ethnic or racial group.”. I am not hostile, nor prejudiced nor do I discriminate against Jewish people.
No I do not permit ‘any’ statement against Islam. (by the way I warn you in the same way I warn others…in order to prevent this website comment section just degenerating into abuse – if you state something that is false – you get a chance to correct it. If you continue to make the claim without any evidence then your posts are not permitted. This comment section is meant for discussion. Refusing to listen means you do not want discussion).
Your defence of the hatred of Jews (including justifying the Roman persecution of them) is chilling and it is anti-semitic.
I’m not sure why you are shouting about Christian Zionists….I am not one….stay on track….
Thank you Glenda for interceding and seeing my original point exactly. I appreciate it
“Anyone who disagrees with Judaism’ is anti-semitic” is the definition extracted from the fact that I never called for Jews to be killed, yet you accused me of antisemitism. In the same way you put words in my mouth translating my statement that Rome reacted to Jewish terrorism, being somehow a claim Rome’s actions were “justified”? Neither Rome nor the Jews were justified, except in the sense that Romans had every right to decide whether the Jews were welcome in their city or not, while Jews felt justified in rebelling against Rome. The fact stands that Rome did not have anything in particular against the Jews being in Rome until they caused trouble – and then they did.
Same today.
It’s irrelevant whether Rome was justified to wipe Israel off the map, because God ordained it and once again it only happened because the Jews constantly rebelled against the Romans. Jesus warned them – they didn’t listen and reaped the reward. Or do you not believe that?
Yet for some reason you think fake neo-Israel IS justified to wipe Gaza off the map, or else you wouldn’t validate that silly comment that hatred of Zionism is hatred of Jews. I do hate Zionism and justifiably so. I do not hate the Jews – most are just normal people deceived by a false religion, which Christian Zionists, being attracted to your posts tone, idolise. They openly support wiping Gaza off the map, while offering the shield of Jewish victimhood as a justification. Do you understand this dynamic or not?
With respect for your comment rules, I think you operate fairly and am listening to you and echoing back your comments and critiquing them – and I thank you that you allow that dialog. However, I appreciate that you don’t know who I am, the same as I do not know you. I do not see much evidence that you are listening to me and obviously it would be sensible for me to draw the line there unless you accuse me of something else I do not believe I am guilty of.
As always your words are simply spot on. Thank you.
In Addition to your excellent & sensitive article David, on this Bondi Atrocity.., why is there no open debate on Islam.., being a political and religious following, entirely intertwined and without democracy..?
Countries that exclude muslims,., Poland, Hungary et al.., never have terrorism problems, exacerbated by islam…!
Muhammed, islam ‘s so called prophet was a warlord who simply chopped your head off, if you did not follow his then philosophy, which became an ideology, then a religion.., and he took 9 ,& 10 year old girls as his ‘wives’ …
None of our leaders or politicians are prepared to name the ‘elephant in the room’, and at best generic terms such as ‘extremism’ are applied. They do well to remember that ‘an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last’. The Jewish community are indeed ‘the canary in the coalmine’ and we need look no further than Africa to see the consequences of unchecked militant Islam. Yet by God’s grace we have an enduring promise (Matthew 16:18).
Good insights but I was surprised by the title for two reasons. First historically pogroms were organized by the state or at the very least, tacitly approved by the state who did nothing to stop them. Second, they were historically large groups of like mine individuals. Two people from the same family in a country who immediately sends police to stop them seems to be a misuse of the term pogrom.
You got it spot on….thats why I used the word pogrom…the state (or those who run our states) are tacitly approving these pogroms and they have done nothing to stop them. And yes there have been massive marches by people demanding the annhilation of Jews and the Jewish state. The use of the word pogrom is spot on….
Excellent again David. How sick and vile the comments of Joel and indeed Glenda. Only proving your points and revealing their deceived minds and how this curse of antisemitism can literally derange you and drive you crazy. We see this with Candace Owens and Tucker Qatarson. It is shocking but not surprising the rising hatred of Israel and by default the Jewish people, although they are very clever in trying to separate the two. The Bible predicts this evey thing and only keeps on proving to me the accuracy and truth of God’s Word. Here is a shocking but true statement. You can’t be a Christian who claims to love Jesus the King of the Jews and hate Israel and by default His people Israel. It really is simple, you can have the religious titles and go to church and believe your religious doctrines but you can’t hate what He loves, it really is as simple as that. For multitudes of Christians Who are deceived and buying the world’s lies and conspiracies against Israel and the Jewish people they will hear these eternally tragic words. “I never knew you, depart from me”
Hi Glenda. I appreciate what you are saying but you are living in a fantasy land if you think that antisemitism would cease if Israel stopped in Gaza (and by the way please stop calling it genocide- it is horrific bit it is not genocide). The only reason modern Israel exists is because of antisemitism. The Jews have no where else to go. The antisemites are not primarily concerned with Gaza. They want Israel wiped out – from the River to the Sea – and they want Jews dead.
Thank you for exemplifying the false religion of Christian Zionism so cleanly.
People who don’t support the secular, gayest most anti-Christ state in the world will apparently hear “I never knew you, depart from me”
You are not only a poor exegete, but deluded if you think Jesus would praise you for telling the Jews they are special instead of provoking them to jealousy. Your religion bears no resemblance to early Christianity. To you Justin Martyr is an antisemite. You would be there asking the Jews where you can send the cheque for them to ship a convoy of Christians to Rome to be fed to the lions, because if you bless the Jews then Jesus will bless you.
You claim “the Lord” told you to be pro-Judaism? But you condemn the earliest Christians in their condemnation of Judaism. You are deluded.
Oh and by the way Joel, I am a proud Christian Zionist, why you might ask do I align myself to such an ideology? Because of my understanding of the Bible and how the Lord is the first and last Zionist and that it, is He who scattered Israel in judgement and He that is restoring them again. It’s one of the clearest and most consistent themes of the Bible for those who know the Bible? For those who don’t actually know the Bible and instead rely on church doctrines it seems to be confusing at best and outright hostility at worst. The truth will prevail however and I certainly would not want to be on the wrong side of truth when the Lord comes back in judgement. All those who did not believe in and love the truth will be handed over to the great delusion and will ultimately be condemned. There is no bigger truth in all the Bible in that God is the God of Israel and His promises to His people stand forever and that the Gentile church has been allowed to be grafted in and become a part of these promises. Those who say He is finished with His promises and that the church has replaced the firstborn son are heretics and are not believing in or loving the truth and are indeed fulfilling the warnings of Paul when he asks the church not to be arrogant against the natural branches!
Guy – I asked you in a previous discussion – have you considered the implications of your interpretations being incorrect? If they are the implications for yourself and the world are huge.
Sorry, your understanding of the bible is flawed. Israel were scattered in the Babylonian diaspora. They were then regathered as per Jeremiah’s prophecy in chapter 29 V10, where God specifically invokes His PREVIOUS promise to regather, which He did at the end of 70 years of Sabbath’s.
The ark OF THE COVENANT went missing from this time – it’s gone and so was that covenant. What do you think it meant? The Jews went back to the land THEN, but not for the New Covenant which was necessary and promised in Jeremiah 31. Judaism entered it’s intertestament and soon to be Hellenised period awaiting the Messiah, who brought and institutes the New Covenant with it’s spiritual promises. The Jews wanted a warrior king to retake their land, but Jesus wasn’t interested in the land. He was actually getting ready to drive them out, leaving only the spiritual promises which passed to the Jewish remnant and those who believed.
Which brings us to your claim that the Church is grafted into Judaism. Nah ah. They were broken off, why would you be grafted into the thing which is broken off?
Paul warning Gentiles not to boast against the Jewish branches being broken off in his time, has nothing to do with bankrolling a Zionist project 2000 years later. The same Paul said circumcision is nothing. When the Gentile said “they (the natural) have been cut off that I may be grafted in”, to which he responds “well said”. In other words “true”. His warning is against pride leading to a fall and reminds that they stand by faith and God’s kindness, but the same severity will come on those who fall like the Israelites did. It has nothing to do with criticising Judaism or Jews being a shoe-in – quite the opposite.
Everything you believe about this is wrong. Wide and spacious is the road of Christian Zionism, taking up the cause and curse of Christs enemies and so much blood to answer for.
See, we can both make appeals. Mine just happen to be based upon facts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLnA-WDJ5Ww
I find it bizarre that they are saying that the attacks have nothing to do with Islam, the video link above, of the Sydney Shooter, is evidence of him being involved in Islamic Dawa activities (Islamic evangelization activities) and his association with ISIS sympathisers. While his father was an immigrant, he is born and raised in Australia (seems to suggest that he was radicalised in Australia), bizzare that the ASIO (The Australian Security Intelligence Organisation) knew that there were radical preachers such as Wisam Haddad teaching the Quran faithfully, which automatically means spreading/inciting hatred towards the jews and viewing jihad as positive. The Authorities knew that Pro Isamic State networks were operating (which Wisam Haddad was part of) in Australia and did nothing. The Dawa centre named in the video had Islamic State propaganda, and again did nothing. They justified their decision to do nothing based on their assessment as” Awful but lawful.” – whatever that means…!!! Why are these networks allowed to operate?
I wonder if the Authorities would have shut down these networks and imposed fines or jailed anyone who promoted anti-semitism. Could this tragedy have been prevented?
Perhaps they hesitated to act because the radical preachers would defend themselves by stating that they were just being faithful to their scriptures,
If the Authorities now do not take the necessary action, would their inaction encourage more attacks, Like if you dont take out root (Radical/faithful Quranic preaching), what hope is there that its fruit (terrorist activities/jihad) will stop??
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/M3l8078Mq6U
The other bizzare thing is why nobody is protesting about nigerian islamic extremists threats to attack and kill Christians in Nigeria on Christmas day… They have been killing Christians for some time now, and nobody is protesting. I actually think this is an issue that needs more awareness. Their Government is either lying or incompetent or both…just saying that this is farmer issues caused by climate change..
I like how Mike Winger is doing that in America, I wonder if there is something we can do here in Australia. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/M3l8078Mq6U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt-johvvo9A
ABC news posted a Four Corners Documentary about these networks operating in Sydney 7 months ago,
where they questioned why the ASIO could not prevent the wakely church stabbing of the orthodox priest, as they had an undercover agent who infiltrated the group and also shows how Wisam haddad has been heavily influenced by Anjem Chowdary (another IS sysmpathiser and hate preacher from the UK)
Crazy that this documentary was posted on youtube 7 months ago…
Just dont understand why these networks are allowed to grow…Bizzare!!!
Hi Glenda and yes I have considered and thought much about my stance. Although it’s not a stance, it comes from the Lord whom I know and His Word that I also know, having read it from cover to cover, multiple times over the years. Have you ever read the Bible? One thing that is clear, is that it is a Jewish book written by Jews and that God is the God of Israel, and by the way He named Himself that when Moses asked Him His name. He is also sovereign over all the universe and history is His story. The restoration of Israel is the MOST prophesied thing in the Bible and the fact that we have it before our eyes every day on our TV screens only goes to prove the very Bible and thing I am saying! The fact also that there is so much hatred, confusion and division over Israel only goes to again confirm the Bible. God has an enemy and he is causing all the hatred, division and confusion, but again is only fulfilling the Word. The church may preach replacement theology but the devil doesn’t and he certainly doesn’t believe it as it is his plan to wipe out the Jewish people and Israel. No Jews and no Israel, no return of the Lord, it really is quite simple when you see it from the perspective of who’s will will stand the devil or the Lord? I have peace and sleep very well as a Christian Zionist and know His pleasure. I doubt, those who believe in replacement theology can say the same? And I know for a fact that those who stand against the Jewish people and Israel cannot say it, in fact I know from the Word that they live under the curse of God. Candace Owens is a visual example of this and you will see her downfall and unravelling in real time. From the time she turned away and has now turned on Israel, her derangement, madness and demonic possession has been tragic to see but again only goes to actually prove the Bible.
A visual example? As opposed to Erika Kirk? Are you for real?
Yeah those blessings have really been flowing since 1947 haven’t they? 😂
Thank you for your detailed response and explanation Guy. I also have considered the position and I interpret totally differently from you. I don’t know if you have read the comments of our experience of Israel. Like you we thought it was prophecy revealed – however my late husband (Scots Presbyterian Jew) went to prepare the way for us to emigrate. He returned to Scotland very disillusioned and his experiences of what was happening in Israel led him to believe it was definitely not prophecy fulfilment.
Yes Glenda you keep mentioning the experience of your husband. And by that very experience then can we say that the church is no longer relevant to God and must be discarded? The church has failed God and could be charged with all the crimes you throw at Israel, does that mean God is finished with the church? The churches failings and Israels failings do NOT cancel God’s covenants, His faithfulness or His grace and mercy. There IS a remnant of Israel that He is going to save in the last days and the restoration of Israel is Him showing the world and us that He is sovereign, Faithfull and God! Though that restoration, He is working on and will save the remnant of Israel. And by the way the church is also a remnant!
Joel, there really is little point in going back and forth with you. I haven’t mentioned Judiasm once, yet you seem to accuse me of trying to promote it and other false accusations. Yes I KNOW you do not know the Lord as if you did you would love His people and at least have mercy for the natural branches. I have given direct references from the Bible, you have given history and church doctrine. I will gladly debate anyone on this matter but I will use the Word of God. Just one quick one then. As Jesus was about to go into heaven from the mount of olives in Jerusalem. They asked Him a certain question, what was His response and His answer? It is not for you to know the dates and times, the Father has kept this under His own authority. Seems to me the answer was, yes it will happen but only the Father knows the dates and times. And so do we, 14th May 1948 was the beginning. As I said I would not want to be standing against and cursing what the Lord is doing in the these days as He has promised through His Word that all who stand against will incur His judgments and that includes those who hold the title of christian with a very small c.
Guy,
Your claim that have not mentioned Judaism once illustrates the intellectual dishonesty that you claim follows big C Christians. If not Judaism, then who exactly are you talking about? 🤔
Weird thing I’ve noticed is that big C Christians don’t want to talk about the history of God’s ACTUAL people and the beliefs of the church. They “only” want to talk “using the bible”, except when other people use it. They are big on setting dates for the end times like most apocalyptic cults. And also like most cults they pronounce judgements against anyone who disagrees with their obviously false takes. But of course, they are still THE big C Christians.
I think this is the wrong forum to debate, but neither do I think you are willing to do so. Your entire big C identity has been wrapped up in the idea that the whole point of Christianity is supporting the interests of Jews, so your cognitive dissonance will kick in as soon as your position is exposed by history and the Scriptures. I already referred to Jeremiah 29 and the clear diaspora context and you didn’t engage with it, for obvious reasons.
If you would be willing to debate the topic, so am I, but this is not my platform.
Question – does the man made creation of Israel equate to the Biblical Israel?
Thats a loaded question if ever there was one! Do you not think that biblical Israel was also considered manmade by its enemies?
If you believe in a sovereign God as many who espouse church doctrine do then there is no such thing as man made anything! This is where the issue really can’t be denied or argued against? IF you believe in a sovereign God who rules the universe who sets up and removed kings as the Bible says, who doesn’t allow a sparrow to fall to the ground without His say so. Then how do you explain restored Israel if He has finished with Israel? How do you explain the Jewish people for that matter? In all history when a people were expelled and scattered to the nations, ultimately they were swallowed up by those nations despite religion and culture etc. If you do believe in a sovereign God then the restoration and the miraculous survival of Israel HAS to be from God? The fact that this very thing seems to match up with so many Biblical prophecies, surely should make Christians at least begin to question what they have been taught in their Bible colleges and their systematic theology books? The fact that so many are firmly entrenched in their theologies and doctrines and that they are many times firmly opposed to Israel, just goes to prove they are religious and don’t Know Him. They are our modern day pharisees and are unaware of it just as the pharisees were and persecuted the early believers, actually thinking they were doing God’s will, like Paul was. But God’s truth will stand and once you know it you can’t shy away or deny it. I have no pleasure in standing for the truth on Israel sometimes as it is costly and you get all kinds of flack and abuse for it, least of which is being called a deluded Christian Zionist! But knowing the truth means you must stand for it and Jesus said He would send us the Spirit of the truth. This last days battle that we are in is not a battle between Islam or Israel or between replacement theology versus Christian Zionism, it is the battle for the truth! All who love the truth will be saved. All who have not loved the truth but have followed the Father of lies will be handed over to an even greater delusion(they may have already been handed over). The result being all who have not loved the truth that could have saved them, will be condemned. You want to show that you know the Lord? Show it by believing in and walking in the truth.
israel is a racist aparthied state run by racist jews supported by christian bigots like yourself and jews need to hear the good news not how they are good jews
I really hope you do not consider yourself a proponent of the ‘good news’….what a nasty, vicious, hateful anti-semitic post. I only leave it up here to let people know the kind of thing I have to put up with – and even more – what Jewish people have to put up with….but it won’t happen again!
Joel and Glenda will agree though and yes thank you David, it does show the Spirit of antisemitism at work in people’s lives and hearts. No one ever said they are good Jews, but neither are they greater sinners than the rest of us. You would think at the VERY least Christians would follow the words of Paul and show the same mercy to the Jews as God has shown them but alas they stand in firm opposition and follow lies and conspiracies. But this only proves the Bible and exposes their hearts. As John said, if you hate you are a murderer and no murderer has life in him. How can you love the God of Israel who you don’t see if you hate His people that you do see? How tragic that so many decent church going christians are so deceived and unaware of who God is and totally unaware of what His Word says, just like the religious of Jesus day, there is nothing new under the sun!
Hi Joel, more than happy to debate and yes I use the Bible. My church fathers seem to differ from yours? Mine are Paul, Mathew, John, Jude, Titus and Jesus. All Jews who gave us the New Testament. Of course I see church history and church fathers and agree with those who agree with the original church fathers of the New Testament. Where church fathers go off and veer away from the New Testament then they are NOT my church fathers and I stick with the Bible. Interesting how in an earlier post you said the destruction by the Romans was ordained by God which it certainly was and was prophesied. How is that you can’t see or believe that the restoration of Israel is also ordained by God and prophesied? Maybe these deluded Christian zionists are so powerful they can actually hoodwink God and get a country recreated behind His back and without His say so? Wow, what power they must have! And to go to Jeremiah, I believe he also prophesises Hear the word of the Lord oh nations, He who scattered Israel will gather Him and guard Him as a shepherd gathers His sheep. Those who teach replacement theology teach that God is a liar and He lied to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He lied to David but no He didn’t lie it is all spiritual now! If it is all spiritual then why did Jesus receive a physical resurrected body and why are we going to receive such a body also? The church teaches Jesus is going to come back and take us all to heaven. The Bible teaches Jesus is going to come back rescue Israel and set up His Kingdom as the Son of David and rule over the nations from there. When this 1,000 year kingdom is over heavenly Jerusalem comes down from heaven down to the earth so God the Father brings heaven down to earth and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. This is literal Bible verses and will be fulfilled literally. It is those who want to spiritualise the Bible and make it allegorical that get it so wrong and therefore can’t see the purpose of the restoration of Israel. The restoration of Israel is the firstfuits and biggest sign that the Kingdom of God is coming. No wonder the world is up in arms as subconsciously they know it is the end for them(psalm 2) what is surprising is the reaction of so called christians and their reaction exposes their heart.
Hi Guy. I suggest to you that you simply do not understand what you are reading and make a lot of assumptions to make modern events fit your narrative. I do not say that a country falsely being called Israel has no significance, only that you are mistaken as to what it signifies.
A simple example of your flawed interpretation is your reference to Jerusalem coming down from heaven literally. You evidently must mean like some kind of spaceship?
Any idea how big New Jerusalem is? It is CONSIDERABLY bigger than the land of Israel, so where is it landing? That simple fact illustrates your misunderstanding of the prophecies. If it is too big to land in Israel, then it has nothing to do with the physical land of Israel and all your other claims fold like Italian steel. There has already been a literal fulfilment of temporary promises and covenants. The Old Covenant is long gone, finished with, as evidenced by the ark going missing and the absence of Israel from that land for longer than it ever was a nation. Surely a NT spirit filled Christian should understand this? Only the New remains with the spiritual promises to the seed – being Christ, not the “alleged” descendants of Isaac, who actually have zero evidence they are any such thing.
You of course still did not address my comment on Jeremiah 29 through 31. You simply do not understand that the diaspora regathering already happened and now the ONLY valid covenant is through Christ, the New Covenant. Not the Jewish religion – they have no covenant. Read Hebrews – it’s gone.
Read it again. The Old was passing away 2 thousand years ago because only the new covenant held by Christians is valid since that time.
You also don’t understand the Mosaic Law was interwoven with the land promises and the Israelites retention of the land was entirely conditional. So God brought them into the land (✔️) and when they were exiled he regathered them again (✔️ ). Promises fulfilled. Your assumption that God promised the physical land “forever” based upon the word “olam” is not the actual meaning of Hebrew olam.
Furthermore, God specifies that the land will repay it’s sabbaths when he sends them into exile, but that he will later regather them. This is in Leviticus 26, which proves the prophecy refers to the Babylonian exile, not the Roman diaspora and I now refer you back to Jeremiah 29-31. A third restoration does not exist in the prophets – it is inserted from an outside source. Ezekiel’s temple description is smaller than the 2nd temple eventually was with some exact 2:1 proportions and a surrounding wall which is almost impossibly high. Ezekiel’s city description is updated by Revelation 21, showing that it is pointing at the spiritual promise for the body of Christ, not a physical land thing, in which case we Christians as descendants of Abraham would also be entitled more so in Christ.
A country falsely being called Israel! So you want to gaslight people and say “well it’s in the same place as the Bible and it is the same Jewish people, but it has nothing to do with Biblical prophecies or understanding of the Bible cause it doesn’t fit my theology that I got taught by man” Anyway; here we go. It seems like it’s you that’s obsessed with Judaism and the Torah and the ark of the covenant(who has even mentioned the ark and what has it got to do with anything) Yep your right the Torah came and went with Yeshua’s(Jesus) death and resurrection. And the promise to Abraham was 400 years before the Torah and was given as a promise and will be fulfilled by a faithful God, why is that so hard to grasp? Christians are chosen by grace as is remnant Israel, as the Bible teaches. Church teaches, they replaced Israel, the Bible teaches Christians have been accepted and allowed into the Olive tree of Israel(NOT Judaism but into the family of God and that family is Israel) I know all about replacement theology and understand why it’s so appealing yet completely wrong. 80 percent of it is true but it’s the church replacing part that is so wrong and all the promises now being spiritual and belonging to the church! If this is the case and God can change His covenant you should be a Muslim? They teach the Jews blew it, so God moved to the church, then the church blew it, so God moved to Muhammed so you should really become a Muslim if you believe God can change a covenant if the people fail? It’s amazing that the MAJOR controversy of the New Testament was that Gentiles were coming into the faith and how did that work. Fast forward 2,000 years and now the church is saying “what do we have to do with Israel and the Jews” It’s so bizarre and shows how far the church has moved away from it’s Biblical roots. By the way, early believers were not called Christians but followers of the Way. You seem to love Jeremiah also and hold his prophecies up, well here is Jeremiah for you. From now on I will no longer debate you but simply paste scripture and let the Bible speak for itself. Only reason I am engaging is not for you as I feel you are beyond the pale and have the spirit of antisemitism in you and therefore don’t have the life of God, I am posting for the benefit of others who may be confused or questioning.
37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. 38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.
42 “This is what the Lord says: As I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will give them all the prosperity I have promised them. 43 Once more fields will be bought in this land of which you say, ‘It is a desolate waste, without people or animals, for it has been given into the hands of the Babylonians.’ 44 Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes,declares the Lord.” Jeremiah 32, 37-end
23 The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: 24 “Have you not noticed that these people are saying, ‘The Lord has rejected the two kingdoms he chose’? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the Lord says: ‘If I have not made my covenant with day and night and established the laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.’” Jeremiah 33, 23-26
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
35 This is what the Lord says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the Lord Almighty is his name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.”
37 This is what the Lord says:
“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord. Jeremiah 31, 31-37
And I can post hundreds more to counter replacement theology and simply state what the Bible states!
Let me fix your sentence for you.
“I can post hundreds more to counter replacement theology and… ” – you will still be wrong.
And I will also fix your misrepresentations of Jeremiah, which you clearly still don’t understand even after I explained and once again bypass the Babylonian exile to which he is referring, meaning that the restoration cannot be about a 2nd diaspora, it is about something else. How do I know this? Why don’t you ask the exile prophet Daniel where he went to read about Israel being restored after 70 years?
You claim that the promises are not spiritual? Fine – then presumably you don’t claim to have any part in those spiritual promises since they don’t exist – according to you. That would be “replacement”.
You claim God can’t change His covenant and then laughably quote from Jeremiah where the prophet explicitly states God has said He is CHANGING the covenant. I said it last time and I will say it again – why don’t you read what it actually says, instead of what you think it says.
What does the Ark OF THE COVENANT “have to do with anything” you ask? Are we supposed to take that to be a serious question from a spirit filled discerning mind? It contained the written covenant. No stone tablets, NO COVENANT. No Ark, NO COVENANT. No priesthood, NO COVENANT. You want proof? Why did God rewrite the Ten Commandments on stone tablets a 2nd time? Think about it…. it illustrated the COVENANT being broken prophetically and also, without the stone tables, there was no Law in the Ark. These were necessary for the covenant to be in place. I spent paragraphs explaining one simple thing – the Old Covenant of which Jesus said it was easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter to go. Guess what? That Law passed away. That is what Christians have always believed according to Hebrews and at least half of Pauls letters. The Law was replaced, end of discussion. The high priest is no longer a Levite, so they cannot reinstitute the Levite priesthood. There is no place for your “God has 2 people’s” nonsense in Christian doctrine and no one in the New Testament teaches it, neither did anyone else – that’s why I predicted you would call Justin Martyr antisemitic. Of course you don’t have the stones to say it directly, so you went full JW/SDA cult mode and claimed that you don’t care what any Christian in the 2nd century believed. Actually, you are just ignorant of it and afraid to look. You should be 😉 because no one within 30 years of the Apostles believed what YOU do about Judaism being a parallel covenant.
You’re indignation that I called modern Israel false illustrates dishonesty and unwillingness to recognise logical categories. There are 2 categories – what the land is/was called and what the nation is called. The land itself was not named Israel for almost 2 thousand years and the “nation” is/was a religion called Judaism, not Israel. So a nation of “Judaism” setting itself up as if it is ethnic Israel – is in my view “false” and justifiably so, not least because we Christians know that they are not all Israel that are descended from Israel (if they even actually are). The land itself being called Israel is not wrong of course, but claiming that national identity as if Judaism is the continuity of Israel IS false. The aliyah code is indeed concerned with religious identity and not ethnicity, which makes something that you require for your doctrine to be true – proven genealogical descent from Abraham – unnecessary. That’s why Black Hebrew Israelites could claim Israeli citizenship simply by converting to Judaism.
It is shocking that among your ad hominems these things have to be explained to a big C Christian. And indeed you are not debating, even though you claimed that you would be willing, which really speaks for itself.
I’m sure the moderator is tieing of reading and reviewing these messages, so if this is published and since you have declined debate, unless I am given explicit permission and/or receive an explicit request, I will refrain from further response, but hopefully what I have posted so far will illustrate the large gap between a reasoned position and empty emotive big C Zionism, to which I say “no thanks”