It’s been an intense but revealing 24 hours. I have learned to an even greater extent just how deep the rot is in the contemporary church, and just how easy it is for us to be intimidated and bullied into silence.
Let me set the background, then explain what happened yesterday, and then offer some analysis of what precisely is going on.
Vicky Beeching brought out her book Undivided a couple of months ago and has been touring the TV studios and doing newspaper interviews ever since, telling everyone how bad and wicked the evangelical church is. I wrote an honest review of that book (here) trying to empathise with her, whilst not agreeing with her theology.
But Vicky has a problem. She is, either wittingly or unwittingly, being used as the poster girl for the liberal attack on the Christian church. Why else do you think the Guardian called her “arguably the most influential Christian of her generation”? Not because she is, but because thats what they want her to be. She herself believes that the church will eventually unanimously adopt her new found (illiberal and intolerant) position and she states in the book that she sees herself as being on a mission to change the church and get us to rethink our theology to align with hers. “I dearly hoped that the church would change its views on same-sex marriage. The most effective way of working toward this, I found, was having one-to-one conversations with pastors and leaders who’d known me for years, encouraging them to rethink their theology.” She has allied herself with Stonewall, Steve Chalke and any non-Christian group that will give her a platform and support.
I wrote to Vicky privately after reviewing the book pointing out that I wished her no harm and that I bore no personal ill will to her. Indeed I wish her well. I have nothing against her personally and would love to meet her. My concern is to defend the teaching of the Bible and to protect the church from the harmful teaching that she is now espousing. It doesn’t matter whether the poison is administered by a lovely or a hateful person – its still poison. I heard nothing from her. Until I was told about the following being posted on her FB page on Sunday. She had just tweeted:
Vicky then went on to show what she meant by ‘positivity’ by having a go at Peter Lynas of the Evangelical Alliance who wrote a fair and gracious review of her book and at the EA for daring to publish it. Then it was the turn of yours truly.
In addition to the official Evangelical Alliance article, supporters of the EA are also enthusiastically sharing another article too – an “Open Letter” to me, this time by a pastor/minister from Scotland. It lacks even more pastoral nuance than the official EA article.
Do read it and see what type of things are being circulated about people like me. This is the type of material that many in the EA’s community are happily standing alongside. I rarely give exposure to content like this, but in this case, it’s actually a very useful (although painful) example of what is going on behind closed doors. It’s good to bring things like this into the light.
In this article, my vulnerable, raw and intimate memoir about journeying with faith, God and the Bible has been given such a layer of spin that you either laugh or cry. Sadly, I have to confess I did the latter – especially on the back of the EA piece as well. It’s hard not to feel devastated when you are shot down by fellow Christians who claim to represent Jesus’ love.
In the piece, I am deemed to no longer be a Christian, nor a decent human being, nor a student of the Bible. I am said to be trying to damage the church, and am a money-hungry, fame-seeking liar. The only heroes are those who submit to enforced celibacy — the rest of us are thrown under the bus as anti-Christians.
What concerns me most is this — it’s not just me that these authors are firing at, as they load their weapons and take aim. Vulnerable LGBTQ people read these blogs and are deeply wounded by the shame and judgment they contain. Its no wonder the LGBTQ community has such high instances of depression, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts.
I’ll say the same about this article as I did about the EA piece – – it’s not me or other LGBTQ people who look bad as a result of reading such reviews; it’s those who feel morally superior enough to write the articles in the first place and possess such an embarrassing lack of pastoral skills. To my LGBTQ Christian friends and allies; I am so sorry that you have to endure this kind of abuse too. My love and prayers are with you.
My heart sank when I read it, because I knew what my social media feeds would have in the morning when I woke up. I knew the abuse that would follow. After all Vicky has portrayed herself as “vulnerable, raw and intimate” and I was the unpastoral, abusive scumbag who made her cry! Having experienced social media abuse herself I have no doubt that Vicky must have known what she was unleashing.
Her comments were at best disingenuous. They distorted what I said.
This was not something going on ‘behind closed doors’ which she was ‘bringing it into the light’. I was very open about it and published it as an open letter. Nor was it an attack upon LGBTQ people – it was a review of her book with her particular attacks upon the Bible and the church. It was not an attack upon any group. Furthermore I quoted from the book extensively in order to ensure that it was not ‘spun’ and that I was responding to what she actually said. What would be the point of replying to what Vicky didn’t say? Although Vicky made this claim she did not provide one example of the alleged spin.
In her FB comments Vicky claimed that I called her a liar (I didn’t), that I said she wasn’t a decent human being (I didn’t – what I actually said was “you come across as a lovely person who has had a horrible time”); that I said the only heros were those who submitted to forced celibacy (I didn’t) and that this was aimed at the whole LGBT community (it wasn’t)…
But the inevitable happened – I won’t bore you with all the attacks – and there are some that cannot be repeated here…but here is a sample (there are hundreds more!):
Please don’t give this wee flea another thought. Like the insect, this man relies on getting blood for his own existence. The only way to outdo this sort of stuff is respond by loving, and loving the costly Jesus way.
Ah, clearly he knows nothing about intersex or about queer theory. Sad, ignorant man.
That’s just nasty. If he can’t debate the issue theologically without personal insults he should grow up or shut up. Too many churches are stuffed full of windbag leaders who always seem to be happy to exclude people from God’s kingdom when they don’t come up to a standard that many of the polygamous authors of the Old Testament would also have failed ! Must come as a complete disappointment to some leaders when Jesus accepts all who come to him. I seem to recall the pharisees having the same problem….
He seems to quote quite a bit from the book. Isn’t that copyright infringement and therefore actionable?
This guy is evil incarnate. Where did he learn to be so mean? The Bible?
And that total asshat will claim “theology” or he’s being “theological”.
No. Your homophobic and you picked a religion you thought you could hide in. Racists use it, child abusers use it. All sorts of nasty people claim it. Not any more. We see you and we will show you the light one by one. 🌈
Vicky, I think what pains me the most about what this person wrote was the hypocrisy and deceitfulness of his true motive, and yet he has the nerve to quote Jeremiah 17 against you about how above all else the heart is deceitful. If one Christian disagrees with another about any subject, we are commanded to engage in the discourse gently, and in love. Despite couching his language in “I’m sorry…” this and that happened to you, and closing his letter as if he loves you in Christ, it is evident from the language he uses throughout that he has no love or any kind of decent regard for you as another human being.
There are plenty of evangelicals who support SSM and LGBT+ equality. Usually, they are people who have actually taken the trouble to read the scriptures, rather than merely parrot the received wisdom. The problem is that of the swimming pool – all the noise comes from the shallow end.
Vicky, I read this a few days ago. It’s terrible, and the theology and history is pretty terrible too, for someone who describes himself as ‘a’ historian. But he has form, he’s an extremist and clearly thinks that someone who worked in queer theory and gender studies needs to repent. I’m sure it still hurts, but, he’s the Taliban.
I am so sorry you have to deal with this. It does not represent Christ’s love or compassion; indeed, it is the precise opposite.
Shockingly anti-Christian vitriolic diatribe. The irony is both jaw dropping and heart breaking.
What a patronising twit!!
Unbelievable! Talk about hypocrisy! He answers to the same God we do!
Bloomin heck the guy who wrote this review sounds pretty miserable and very unChristian.
How to respond to Soft Intimidation
It’s always difficult to know how to respond. Especially when you are tired and it takes over your day. I liked this tweet from Jordan Peterson today:
Speak, and risk something. Remain silent, and risk something else. Choose your poison.
I guess the only options are:
Fight back and abuse – Please, please, please don’t ever do this. Don’t return fire with fire. Our battle is not against flesh and blood. People who weigh in on my side with similar style insults are really not helping. I am ok with being robust (sometimes too much for todays mega sensitive, omniscient, tone-judging culture) – but there is a world of difference between robust disagreement and personal abuse. I was very concerned when I read a tweet from Vicky complaining about a horrendous three days on social media so I went to have a look and see what she had suffered and to disavow and discourage anyone who thinks they were defending me by attacking her – but I was surprised to find that there was no abuse (at least of her!) not one bit – the vast majority of what I saw were people affirming her and most, if not all of the abuse was (as above) directed to yours truly (all of which was allowed to stay and encouraged!). Given that Vicky posted who posted her attack on EA and yours truly, given that she permitted all the negative and bitter comments against me, I am not quite sure how she had a ‘hard time mentally etc’ on social media over the past three days. Unless she is looking for offence (where there is none) and sympathy, it seems strange to complain that your own posts have caused you mental anguish. (the problem is of course that many will read Vicky’s tweet about being caused mental anguish on social media and immediately blame people who have done nothing!). The bottom line is that if I am going to get upset everytime someone disagrees with me when I post on social media then its perhaps better not to post? I accept of course that it is different when it degenerates into personal abuse. But disagreement is not personal abuse.
Be nice – This advice is equally unhelpful. People take on board the criticism that I am not ‘nice’ and think that I should be ‘nice’ so that people would see that Jesus is ‘nice’ and then everyone will be happy. Whilst I accept that it is entirely wrong to be personally abusive or aggressive…the trouble is that ‘niceness’ is in the eye of the beholder. Its all about perceived feeling and tone but the problem is that these are almost always in the eye of the beholder. People don’t think about what you say, they are more concerned with how you say it – and because it is very difficult to work that out on social media they determine what ‘tone’ is by what they want it to be. If they think that SSM is all about love and being nice and you are opposed to SSM, then you (and your tone) must be hateful and nasty. And lo and behold that is what they see.
In this case Vicky continually goes on the secular media, using her personal story to attack the Bible and the Church – and then immediately cries, you’re not nice, if you disagree with her – because by definition she has made it all about her personal story…or in a widening of the ‘nasty’ narrative, accusing us of being responsible for hundreds of teenage suicides! When the story is about you and you are the victim, then every criticism just enhances that narrative.
Give in – This is the biggest temptation of all. When I saw the number of attacks in my in box this morning, I just wanted to close it all down and just give up. Why should I care if the world wants to go to hell?! Of course that’s wrong. It is a battle and so in the battle we just have to battle on. Anyway having posted my review – what did I expect? Intelligent engagement and civil discourse?! This is the 21st Century post-modern West!
Stand fast – and plead for strength and mercy. God knows we need it. We cannot move one inch from the word of God. And we must not give into hate and despair. Instead we pray and love.
So I did not reply to the comments – but I did to the tweets that were getting increasingly aggressive. A few samples (of the ones I read – there are many more).
I find you to be an embarrassment. Hopefully folks will realize that no engagement with you is the best way to shut you up.
You are up to the usual DAR. Jumping on the backs of the good to put forward your warped narrow theology.
I accuse you as a psychological abuser, yes absolutely. Your words constitute psychological abuse.
I begin to understand where David’s black and white view of the world comes from; from a clinical stance that appears to lack the complexity of human feelings.
However it wasn’t all bad!
He reached out very lovingly to her. Far more gracious than VB was to many in her book.
Hard Intimidation
When the soft intimidation of online attacks, hate mail and the passive/aggressive ‘love’ mails, fail – then the harder stuff begins.
The first is seeking to get those who continue to speak out banned.
So this call to get myself and Peter Lynas expelled from EA
EA article – Peter Lynas – hang your heads in shame – your support for what can only be described as ‘the vile and repugnant’ views of @theweeflea is so incredibly sad You should be expelling Mr Robertson – and supporting the likes of @SteveChalke and @vickybeeching
When it was pointed out that I was a contributor to Christian Today, Mark Woods the editor pointed out that I was not now a contributor – a statement that was instantly ‘liked’ by Vicky. As though I had been fired because of my ‘extremism’. The reality is that I was removed from writing because of economic reasons – in other words they could not afford to keep me or many of their staff. Thankfully Mark posted that correction.
The second approach is to threaten and slander
I was absolutely stunned to see this posted in public:
I found this comment he made under the article the most concerning of all. He presumably has safeguarding responsibilities, so this suggests he would be unlikely to treat child sexual abuse and exploitation seriously. Reported to the Free Church of Scotland.
The comment referred to was this: “Who says paedophilia is not consensual? Child rape would be non-consensual. Given that the State currently argues that a five year old can ‘consent’ to change their gender how would you argue against a paedophile saying that a 10 or 12 year old consented? And paedophilia is now widely recognised as a sexual orientation – which is of course because it is…”
My point was straightforward. I was arguing that paedophilia is wrong (and serious) precisely because, a child cannot in reality consent. I was also pointing out the inconsistency of a society that says a child cannot consent to sexual activity but can consent to changing their gender. (on the one hand they say that a child does not have enough information to give informed consent, on the other they say they do?) . I have no idea how that can be construed as not treating child sexual abuse and exploitation seriously – so much so that the person concerns reports me to my employer! I think the problem is that I take child abuse far too seriously and regard the current vogue for pushing Queer theory ideology upon young children as child abuse. But the damage is done. No matter what happens someone somewhere in the future just needs to point out that I was reported for not taking child sexual abuse seriously. (Despite the fact that I could offer plenty evidence otherwise – it won’t matter). Its just pure hatred and evil.
If someone stepped into an argument on my side and spewed such evil I would disown the comment, remove it and probably block them. I asked Vicky three times to at least disown it – but she refused. That itself speaks volumes. Although she did at least remove her liking and retweeting of the accusation!
It was left to a secular atheist to come to my defence!
As a secular atheist, for years I’ve been one of @theweeflea most fervent critics. This dispicable smearing is outwith the realms of the context to which it was applied. You should apologize for this utterly dispicable Tweet immediately.
The final approach is to use the sledgehammer of the law
This comes back to where Vicky is going. Vicky writes in praise of Stonewall, attacks the EA, complains against Spring Harvest for refusing to employ someone who is in an SSM, and seeks to get conversion therapy banned. Her campaign is to use her new found fame and media status to intimidate. The trouble in these situations is that if you push back at all, the accuser uses their victim status and complains that you are attacking their fragility and immediately stirs up the social media mob by complaining they are being attacked on social media and equating you with any homophobic bully. There is no nuance or subtilty in such ad hom accusations. When the discussion is moved from facts and reality to feelings and then made personal, inevitably it gets nasty. The accuser accuses you of being nasty – if you say nothing its because you are guilty – you say anything and you upset the accuser, who then says the fact that they are upset proves you are nasty! It’s very hard to disagree with a hurt person who has already determined that their hurt is due to anyone who dares to disagree with their new found ideology and identity.
As regards Vicky’s campaign on conversion therapy – which of course the government will fall over itself to grant – this interview is fascinating.
The trouble here is what would actually be banned? The government ridiculously mentioned rape as a cure – by definition that is already banned. But the purpose of mentioning it is to link all forms of whatever they deem to be conversion therapy with that abhorrent practice.
Vicky wants conversion therapy per se banned. Of course the instinctive reaction of most people who know nothing about it, is simply to say ‘yes, it’s a bad thing. Bad things should be banned’. But should all bad things be banned (ie. should we make a law against adultery or swearing or not supporting the England football team!?). And in terms of conversion therapy what does that actually mean? She mentions confession, exorcisms, prayer, bible teaching. Are these all to be banned? She asks why are people seeking these therapies? And answers that we (the State?) need to look at the core teachings….especially the view that being gay is sin. Is this to be banned by the law? It seems to me that is where Vicky and her new friends are leading us -banning anyone who disagrees with their views, in the name of tolerance and love. If you want another example of this – look at Steve Chalke’s latest article on Premier Christianity which ends with these chilling words:
The Government’s 75 point plan is a step in the right direction. But previous research by Oasis has established that churches and Christians are now the single biggest barrier to LGBT acceptance and equality in society.
This week, I will contact other inclusive Christian organisations, churches and agencies. It is my hope that we can work collectively to compile a detailed plan of what needs to be done to tackle these five areas of psychological damage within churches. It is my further hope that Government partner with us to help make this plan a reality.
The practices he wants to partner with the government with to ‘tackle’ include prayer, ‘negative’ bible teaching and not permitting people in same sex relationships to be in leadership. Steve Chalke wants the government to choose our doctrine (or enforce his), our leadership and our practice! This is the only way that this kind of ‘liberal’ Christianity can work – it needs to enlist the power of the State to enforce its dictates upon the Church. Steve and Vicky propose to use the secular State and media in order to make the rest of us conform! Is this the power of love? Is using the secular State and media to impose your ideology really New Testament Christianity? (Incidentally does the publication of Steves article urging government intervention against the Church prove my earlier point? . Is Christian Media a Trojan Horse for Heresy?)
This is how we are and will be intimidated. The social media mob, backed up by mainstream media, will demonise and blame Christians who uphold the Bibles teaching as being responsible for ‘causing harm’; through the newfound and indefinable crime of ‘spiritual abuse’. In the name of creating media ‘safe spaces’ anything that is deemed by them to cause offence/harm will be excluded from the media. If that doesn’t work and they find that the true Church is not so easily intimidated and won’t bow the knee to the gods of this age, they get really angry and all that ‘love’ disappears in a sea of frustration and annoyance. If the mockery, social shaming and emotional manipulation does not shut us up – the law will be used to ban, fine and even imprison those who dare to disagree with the State doctrine. Those who dare to speak out will find themselves excluded from many careers.
Last week in the Scottish parliament I met with a couple of government officials to discuss the proposed gender self-recognition bill. It was almost surreal to find myself having a discussion which included my requesting that I would not be sent to jail for speaking against the Queer theory view of gender. I’m sure they agreed with me, but the fact that the discussion was even taken seriously shows how far down the rabbit hole we have gone and where we are heading.
That’s why – no matter how many times I am abused, no matter how many times I am threatened, no matter how many times I get it wrong (as I often do), I am not going to keep quiet – because I see where this is going. I don’t know whether Vicky is just being used (and if she is then those who are exploiting her fragility for their own ends should be throughly ashamed – if they believe that Vicky is as fragile and vulnerable as she says, then they should encourage to take a break from public life and to get some help – they should not be using her to promote their agenda – that is a very dangerous game) or whether she is fully aware of what she is doing. I cannot be the judge of that. I don’t know her heart. I can only comment on her words and actions. Vicky is not my enemy (and even if she was Jesus commands us to love our enemies) and I genuinely wish her health, happiness and holiness. But I can see where her campaign, teachings and attempts to silence and ban others is going. It would be utterly irresponsible of me to keep quiet. The love of Jesus is too precious to be contained in the PC box of illiberal conformity, or the passing whims of the cultural elites. The Lord will keep his church. The bush burns but it is not consumed. So help me God. Lord have mercy on us all…
Your statutes are wonderful;
therefore I obey them.
130 The unfolding of your words gives light;
it gives understanding to the simple.
131 I open my mouth and pant,
longing for your commands.
132 Turn to mea and have mercy on me,
as you always do to those who love your name.
133 Direct my footsteps according to your word;
let no sin rule over me.
134 Redeem me from human oppression,
that I may obey your precepts.
135 Make your face shine on your servant
and teach me your decrees.
136 Streams of tears flow from my eyes,
for your law is not obeyed.
(Psalm 119:129-136)
An Open Letter to the Evangelical Church about Vicky Beeching and ‘Gay Christianity’
Ps. I note that the most abusive, passive/aggressive and personal tweets come from people who affirm themselves as liberal/loving and LGBT affirming. Their anger is palpable and their lies disturbing (one for example tweeting this morning that I told Vicky to check if she had remembered correctly being raped – I said nothing of the sort – but the lie is instantly retweeted and believed). I think they are so angry because it is becoming clear that we will not all follow their ways and that we are not all right wing nutcases!
If you want an example of how this works – take this tweet –
I wondered what he was referring to. Would I really have been so crass as to ask a victim of rape if they were sure they had remembered it correctly? I was sure that was not the case but then you doubt – so I went back and re-read my letter to Vicky – this is what is being referred to –
The Church – Some of the things you describe are horrendous. I too have seen the hypocrisy you describe. Your description of being sexually abused by a priest in Wycliffe hall is something that made me really angry. What a horrendous experience that must have been. You also write: “Within the college, lots of unmarried seminary students were having sex, and a handful of married students were having affairs with other students. The shiny façade of evangelical morality seemed to be crumbling in front of my eyes. This was not what I’d expected to see at an evangelical college. “ Nor I. You have done us a great service by pointing out the hypocrisy. Although I should point out that all this is dependent on your memories being correct (married students having affairs, lots of unmarried students having sex) and also subject to the caveat that you cannot condemn the whole institution for a handful of rotten apples – after all it would hardly be fair of me to condemn all gay people just because I have known some who have committed rape or abuse!)
It takes a really perverted and twisted mind to see that as asking a rape victim “are you sure you remember it correctly?”. But even worse than that lie. Lord Matt doubled down and when someone else pointed it out he replied:
Apparently my response to his lie should be to apologise for making him lie….this really is from the pit! He then went on to claim that I was being ‘unreasonable’ and a Calvanist…(not quite sure what that is)….before a string of other insults…wonderful how love works!
David, it is foolish to claim that you are being persecuted or abused just because people disagree with what you say is.
That is like you being racist and then complaining when people say you are being racist, or you being anti-Christian and people complaining that you are being anti-Christian.
You don’t have a monopoly on Christianity, you might be wrong, many Christians have been wrong about slavery, women’s rights, colonialism, racism, and many other issues.
Those Christian denominations that supported slavery also claimed that they were the victims of abuse and feeling persecuted, but that doesn’t make them right, as Samuel Johnson said “How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty from the slavers of blacks?”
Replace the word ‘LGBTQ’ with ‘Black people’ or ‘Women’ or ‘Jews’ or ‘Christians’ and you will realize why people have been upset with what you have written. Would it be acceptable for you say these things to Black people or Women or Christians as many Christians in the past have done? So why is it acceptable against LGBTQ people?
We Christians haven’t had the best reputation for freedom speech – remember the blasphemy laws?
Freedom of religion doesn’t mean freedom to discriminate.
Steve – it would be foolish which is why I don’t claim that! Indeed I precisely disavow that.
Equating SSM with slavery or racism is lazy and foolish thinking. Racism and slavery are condemned in tbe Bible. So is SSM.
Which Christian denominations claimed they were being persecuted because they supported slavery? Any examples or were you just making that up?
Freedom of religion doesn’t mean freedom to discriminate? What does that actually mean? Don’t you discriminate? Is obeying what Christ says discrimination?
Whether one is right or wrong, David has the right to debate and express his views on the matter without fear of prosecution or persecution. The gay lobby is trying to shut down all dissent to their practises and that must not be allowed.
Thank you David for your faithful defence of the gospel. May God bless your labours for Him. Blessings,
Don
I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. I wish we had more faithful servants like David.
“…churches and Christians are now the single biggest barrier to LGBT acceptance and equality in society”. To the extent that this is true (and sadly its application is limited although remembering that acceptance of people as equal is not the same as accepting their philosophy as equal) praise the Lord! Long may it continue to be so. Keep up the fight David.
Please keeping speaking out and writing on behalf of so many of us David. We need many, many more Mr Valiant for Truths.
David you are showing an incredible amount of patience and resilience, resulting from in my opinion your deep faith.
All we can hope is that Vicky Beeching and her followers read this post.
David, you are not alone! We stand with you dear brother, keep on fighting because our Father in heaven sees all.
Please carry on doing what you are doing. Your blog helps me, as a Dundonian Christian currently serving with AIM in Nairobi, to see what is happening in the UK.
Everything I read about makes me dispair for Christianity in the UK.
I am saddened as to how Vicky Beeching & others are now attacking biblical truths & God`s laws to serve themselves.
I applaude you for speaking out on this crazy world that we live in, so THANK YOU for all that you are doing. Please don`t keep quiet just to make some people happy.
May God richly bless you for all you are doing
Thank you so much my brother for your continued stand. It’s brothers like you, Joshua D Jones and Sam Allberry that keep me sane.
As someone who has experienced the transformative power of God to lead me out of SSA I have only just begun to experience the rejection and know more will come as I publish books that speak a godly theology of sexuality.
To know that I am not alone means so much to me.
I appreciate that much of your work is in the use of words.. however, perhaps it’s time to pause and review? Has this been a fruitful exercise?
Yep, we read: “With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, ‘Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Acts 2:40
but we also read: “Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues.” Prov 10:19
David, even if you have a deep zeal for the Lord and protecting & defending what you believe to be true- we can all improve in our communications and technique. Sometimes the zeal takes over & we forget wisdom. I’m sure you do have plenty of both.
If you disagree with people there are other means and ways to have a voice. I fear you are losing yours. Certainly you have become a polarising voice- is that really what you want? Is that really the way? Have you already arrived at your destination or like the rest of us do you have more to learn?
Respectfully, think about going a better way with your ‘many words’:-
“And because of his words many more became believers.” John 4:41
I both agree and disagree with Vicky (as I would with anyone!) but I’ve had a tough time agreeing with you on anything. I’m sure you have things to say that are worth hearing.. I have a feeling the only people who are listening to you now are people who already agree with you 100%. Is that what you want?
If you can read my posts and say that you can hardly agree on anything (the faithfulness of scripture, the teaching of Jesus about marriage, the horror of abuse etc) then I’m not surprised you want me to shut up. In terms of a fruitful exercise I don’t think that you are really in the position to judge that (because it wasn’t really a question was it). And in terms of who is listening your last comment about your feelings (again I am a little tired of being judged by peoples feelings) is just wrong. The reason I get so much hassle is precisely because so many people who don’t agree with me are listening to me (or at least reading what I write). If on the other hand you mean by listening ‘agree with’ then your statement is just ‘the only people who are agreeing with you are those who agree with you….somewhat superflous!
I don’t want you to shut up. (If I did I’d have said so.) Keep speaking with ‘many words’ as I said. I have not read all your posts.. I’m sure I can find plenty to agree with (especially the ‘horror of abuse’). Clearly I can’t speak for Vicky but I suspect she would too. Wouldn’t that be a better outcome than what actually transpired?
I was simply encouraging reflection & learning in the light of these recent exchanges online- which as far as I can see have been unpleasant for all concerned. That’s the basis of me having a ‘tough time’ to agree with you.
I might agree on the concepts or ideas you put forward using your ‘many words’.. I just have a tough time with the whole thing which is simply an argument which could be avoided.
It’s all in the public domain for us all to ‘judge’- even with our feelings which are a part of us all (unless we are from the planet Vulcan). My apologies if I’m out of place in that. I’m absolutely able to be wrong. And I’m happy to be sometimes, I become wiser through my mistakes. I hope you can agree with that at least.
Just please keep engaged in thoughtful dialogue. This is becoming monologue. (on both sides; I would add.)
We can all do better. “Blessed are the Peacemakers.”
Thanks. I don’t disagree with much of what you say – just the conclusions. Actually its an argument which must not be avoided. That would be a fatal error. Paul warned the Ephesian elders with tears for three years about the wolves who would come from within (Acts 20). I suspect there were those then who offered the same advice…let it be….blessed are the peacemakers….
David, the saddest thing would be for you to feel alone in this. Of course, you are not alone, because the Lord is always with you, whether or not you feel his hot breath on your neck, and whether or not you are rejoicing or in despair. Beyond that however, you wil not be alone in the church. Thank you for delineating our choices in this matter (of which there is only the one true choice, as you clearly demonstrate). When you are attacked, we are attacked also, in the name of the Lord, so we must be thankful for it, for that is the nature of our place in this world at times when our very presence and witness forces the latent wickedness to become manifest. You are performing a service in standing up and being counted, be the cost ever so great. I hope to be able to stand by you in whatever way it may fall to me, and I am certain I am not alone in this ambition.
Like the Asher case, I can see this issue going all the way to the UK supreme court – should people be allowed to express contrary opinions to homosexuality in public? Since polls suggest almost a third still regard it as an immoral act, this is important.
This idea of gagging people because it is a form of “abuse” to hold something somebody does as wrong is unacceptable.
While I wholeheartedly disagree with the contents of the open letter (and more broadly with the concept of open letters in general), to suggest that you condone the abuse of children is vile and repugnant.
thanks so much Mr Robertson for your words and faithful stand. Agreeing with you in these difficult times.
David, thank you for this very detailed and painful summary of the battle in which you are engaged. I’m not sure I can add anything to your thoughts on where this is all heading. As a country and as a church we find our selves on very rigid rail tracks with no obvious exit and only the prospect of a very bleak time ahead. We need more people in church like you to speak out. We need more leaders. Many of these might be non-Christian like Jordan Peterson and Douglas Murray. I believe God is raising up those we may not expect to defend His Word as he has done throughout history. For me, one of the strangest things is that when you actually go to church today nobody is really talking about what is happening. I cannot believe the lack of awareness my fellow Christians have on this specific question but just as importantly how it relates to so many other questions facing us today. We need to waken up and soon. We may be asked by the Lord to go as sheep to the slaughter but if we do that in ignorance we are not following our Lord’s teachings. I pray that leaders like yourself will be raised up and the Gospel Word will be heard once again above all the noise and babel that our opinion formers, media people, politicians and, sadly, some churchmen are making today.
David,
Thank you for your balanced, honest and sacrificial engagement in this realm of “liberal intolerance”.
Oh conservatives do love to play the victim. With so many words too.
An “open letter” is one of the most passive aggressive forms of communication. But it did give you the reaction you seem to crave.
Actually an open letter is a standard way of responding to a public figure who writes in public and campaigns in public. Its a device I use a lot – precisely because it is open and it is a letter. And I love the way you judge both my motives and my reactions….! Always amazes me how the non-judgemental manage the judging so well! Feel free to respond to any of the points in the open letter – but otherwise I will leave you to conduct the abuse and amateur psychology in your own safe space…
Ha. And you dare to wish Vicky a happy birthday too. Do you have any concept of how you come across?
Ah – one of those damned if you do, damned if you don’t moments….
This all makes my heart sink but I will not be intimidated. The Apostle Paul writes in Ephesians:
“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”
“Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseversance and supplication for all saints;
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.”
Ephesians 6:10-20
I have deliberately quoted this in full from the King James Version as I am aware that there are various modern translations of the Bible which do not always make the Word of God as clear as this version.
As I see it, with opposition to and the watering down of the Truth of the Gospel of Christ, we need to protect ourselves with the armour of God and stand using the might of the Word of God (the sword of the Spirit) when challenged.
There are many of us who stand with you; thank you for ‘theweeflea’ and be encouraged for the Lord our God is with us and it is He who holds the world in His hands, not those who seek to distort the Truth and mute Christians who stand on that Truth.
I weep for the ones who will be lost for they have no idea how terrible it will be; and I pray for many millions more to come to salvation before it is too late.
This story is like something written by Lewis Carroll but never published because his publisher thought it too fanciful. But all is not lost: Vicky Beeching has exhorted her followers to read your open letter. For every one who skimmed it and wrote a nasty tweet how many dozen may have actually read it and been made to think, or wondered why Vicky reacted to it and misrepresented it as she did. I will not be the only one of your readers/prayer partners who will be praying to that effect. Let’s go further and pray that there will be some of them who will look back to what they read as a milestone on the road that lead to their conversion.
I can’t help thinking that Vicky may have heard another voice than yours as she read your open letter – that of her own conscience and attributed some of its harsher criticisms to you. Was it even conviction of sin that made her respond as she did? I can’t help thinking of Festus in Acts 24v26: which the NEB put beautifully: “While Paul was thus making his defence Festus shouted at the top of his voice ‘Paul you are raving…” Some of those present must have said to themselves “Who is raving, Festus?”
David is not alone in this. I would commend http://warhornmedia.com and Tim Bayly’s excellent book ‘The Grace of Shame’. Doug Wilson is another similar voice at http://dougwils.com. His latest post https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/this-cavalcade-of-concupiscence.html is quite good.
Let us pray for these men as they stand in the gap.
David thank you again!
Your words are clearly being twisted so that ‘ears can hear what they are itching to hear’.
The lord, our judge, WILL judge. He knows the hearts of men.
It must be exhausting to so diligently read and reply as you do, but run the race to the end you must! God has given you this gift and many of us are fully behind you in thought and prayer.
Be strong of heart…. only because your heart belongs to the Lord!
Love Trish xx
Thanks for this David. I think the point by disruptive preacher above about where and how voices are heard is worth people thinking through. I don’t think those who see themselves as concerned about public theology and apologetics have all got quite how intensive and relentless the social media thing is. 1. That a movement is not going to sit back after a book is published or after a referendum is won in Ireland, there’s immediate and intensive pushing going on on Twitter, Facebook, blogs etc. 2. That this does not need organised campaigns, there’s a fluidity to how a word, phrase, idea can go viral. You don’t need to instruct people to campaign, nods and nudges can set it off
I’ve written my reflections on the last few days here https://faithroots.net/2018/07/16/when-things-get-nasty/ .. I think There are ways for us to keep thinking about how we communicate too but we also need to be alert to how things are playing out on social media,. Nb I think you saw the original but I’ve added a later postscript. My concern is that often the people speaking are as much used/ played as players in the action
Well said David and we are praying for you all — Keep going!
David, keep doing what you are doing. As far as I can see, you presented a biblical viewpoint. The biblical viewpoint is how things should be from God’s point of view. Those who oppose a biblical viewpoint have the mindset of the world, i.e. selfish, self-serving, narcissistic, horizontal (earthly, worldly) and not vertical (looking to God) . I don’t see any of these characteristics in your writings, so you are not self-serving, as Paul said in Galations 1:10 “Am I now seeking the approval of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.” You are simply presenting a biblical view, which has the wisdom of God behind it, because God knows how we best operate as human beings and warns us against things that are not his ways . The liberal mindset does not have biblical things of God in mind, and in fact undermines God’s ways by presenting a different gospel, and so undermines God-established patterns and models, e.g. marriage, and presents alternatives which are no alternatives at all but ‘spoilers’ of the good things of God. Vicky Beecham’s comments are unfair attacks on your comments, and a twisting of what you said, and so the conclusion is that Vicky Beecham is of the ‘alternative’ mindset and does not have ‘the mind of Christ’, if she does not recognise the points you made, which you did in a respectful way. To promote LGBTQ practice (not inclination) as being acceptable to God is unbiblical and how then can someone call themselves a christian if they blatantly oppose the clear teaching of Scripture and in effect set themselves up in opposition to God himself.
You are one of the few voices around who speak sense in a corrupt generation (because God’s ways make perfect sense). Praying for you David.
Correction: Vicky Beeching (not Beecham)
Thank you again, David. I’ve said before that you should leave social media but fair play to you for standing firm. The only thing that matters is that the Bible is right and Vicky Beeching is wrong. It is simple as that.
I’d also add that she is a bully and a liar.
Vicky seems to have defended her justification of SSM from the standpoint of Christianity and the Word of God, as well as on the basis of her pain, struggle, shame and experiences of being a SSA Christian. I feel for her pain, struggle, shame and experiences and I have no doubt that David Robertson does too. But, she cannot change the Word of God to justify what is forbidden.
She has the backing and support of probably thousands, maybe millions of people now and yet she would unleash the mob on David Robertson instead of having a one-to-one debate with him – or responding to his open letter personally. If she is so confident in her position before God – then why could she not take David on herself ….if his position is wrong, bad, mean, and thereby must surely be easily refuted? She is a theologian after all. She can prove from the Bible that he is wrong?
Well, as a millennial (in age group alone) Christian, I find your writing very helpful. It’s encouraging to know that I’m not a mindless fundy after all. Both your open letters were helpful and gracious and it was helpful that you quoted her book, it’s only fair to let her speak for herself. It may encourage you to know that there are those of us in the next generation who are doing our utmost to stay faithful to the Word of God and to spread the gospel to the lost and men like you are good examples to us. Anyway, the point was just to say that I find your writing helpful and encouraging so thank you.
(up till now) A Silent Reader
God bless you! I wasn’t a Christian at your age and I often wonder how isolated the young and faithful must be now.
It’s had its moments but I’m blessed to be a member of a healthy local church full of good, godly people now. There’s a reason God puts us in churches! Lord bless you too!
Wow. The higher the stripes are flown, the more they show their darkness.
Thank you for your consistent outspokenness.
And shout out to that secular atheist as well, very decent of you sir/madam!
Thank David for this mornings insight. I had several points written down as I read through the post, but time at this moment does not allow for comment. I will just say , John Kelly speaks for me .
It is, as Jesus said, the truth that will set us free. The lies told about what God’s Word clearly says can never undermine that truth. Sin will remain sin, God’s judgement will still stand against sinners, and our only hope will remain Christ. Those God wants to save will be saved. But we must protest against those like VB who (for whatever reason doesn’t matter) try to undermine truth and who spread deception. That is our mission. Thanks to David on this one, more courage to the rest of us not to leave the few standing up for the cross on their own.
1 There are those who support VB arguing for a theological, scriptural
revisionist position. From an Anglican site it it clear one of the main planks of advocacy for their position is that Peter’s dream, opens the door to radical new theology of inclusive sexuallity and SSM.
2 From that same site one main proponent has revealed that they spend a lot of time reading and teaching Queer Theory.
3 This is a response I made to her Queer theory:
“Queer Theory:
Queer theory is grounded in gender and sexuality. Due to this association, a debate emerges as to whether sexual orientation is natural or essential to the person, as an essentialist believes, or if sexuality is a social construction and subject to change.
The queer theory has two predominant strains:
Radical deconstructionism: interrogates categories of sexual orientations.
Radical subversion: disrupts the normalizing tendencies of the sexual order. You’ll be more than aware that a former expounder of Queer Theory, Rosaria Butterfield, jettisoned it following her Christian Conversion. There is much on the internet, from her.
How do you define or describe family after it has been deconstructed through the embrace of queer theory. ?
4 The Peter Lynas EA article:
4.1What seems to have been ignored or downplayed (or at least if it has been mentioned, I’ve missed it) is this part of Lyna’s piece;
“For her coming out piece, Vicky spoke to the activist and campaigner Patrick Strudwick. I had a debate with Patrick for a TV show once, following which, in the green room, he tried to persuade me that the church should change its view on gay people to be more appealing. I tried to explain that it was a matter of biblical teaching not simply people changing their minds. Then he turned and said something like, actually I don’t care, I want to see the end of Christianity. When the story originally came out I thought Vicky’s decision to use Patrick and Stonewall was telling; these were not neutral choices.”
4.2 For all the mention of VB’s evangelicalism, (which begs the question of what the evangel is) and for all the talk of primary sources and secondary source, it seems that she has turned to a primary activist source, which, or who looks forward to the end of Christianity and a (primary source) lens through which to deconstruct scripture.
4.3 If Stonewall wants to see the end of Christianity, the Christian church would be part of the main target groups, and would be delighted to include, or use, or have VB onside.
I’m at a loss how Peter’s dream backs up their viewpoint. The unclean animals in the sheet were anathema to a good Jewish boy like Peter for eating. But the best Jewish boy had already proclaimed all foods clean. Plus there are clear indications from the Old Testament of the inclusion of Gentiles, never mind the New. There are no such indications from Jesus’ words in the NT or anything in the OT that the pattern instituted at creation for human sexual relationships was going to change. The dream seems to be more an encouragement to ditch the symbolic religious life in favour of what those things pointed towards. Not an endorsement of any and all practices.
Can’t make sense of the argument re eunuchs not marrying either. Even if eunuch was synonymous with a same-sex attracted person, Jesus said they didn’t marry.
Hello Jennifer,
It is indeeed preposterous, but it is put forward with obtuse stubborness, as a reason for in radical new movements, in sexual and gender, by two people in particular, who seem to have some influence or clout in the Anglican Church (UK) as bible scholars.’teachers. They are David Runcorn and Penelope Cowell-Doe (who may be the same person who tweets David, and who is a biblical teacher along with being a teacher and proponent of Queer Theory and who seems to go along with a lot of Chalkes teaching). They are opposed to a point of frustration by others, including the author of the blog site, Rev Dr Ian Paul.
Here is a link to a review of both VB’s and Anglican Jayne Ozanne’s book “Just Love- a Journey into self Acceptance” which has drawn a huge number of comments. You’ll need stamina to plough through them.
https://www.psephizo.com/sexuality-2/why-should-we-listen-to-vicky-beeching/
On the same site there is a post today by Ian Paul (his blog) setting out some of the membership of the group working on a Planned teaching Document on sexuality in the Church of England. It is instructive on the way things are likely to go.
Can not see any other outcome than a split with GAFCON,
You gave four options about what to do next (1. Fight back and abuse, 2. Be nice, 3. Give in and 4. Stand fast) and like you I don’t know that there is a completely right answer.
I know from very personal experience how difficult it is to know what to do.
Several things you have written spoke loudly to me. you wrote “….but the lie is instantly retweeted and believed)”. It is not just tweeting but it is also when people write in newspapers and there is the completely wrong assumption that if a newspaper reported it then it must be true.
Perhaps one of the most unfortunately true statements is when you wrote that “Those who dare to speak out will find themselves excluded from many careers.”
On New Years Day 2014 my youngest brother was made to kneel on a beach in Libya by an Arabic gang and was shot through the head. I didn’t take much notice of the news on TV and radio at the time because it reported that a British teacher in Libya had been shot, my youngest brother wasn’t a teacher. I wasn’t at home but at about 2 in the morning the British Anti-Terror Squad Police rang my mobile and informed me that it was my brother. In the hours that followed I spoke with one of my sons to inform but I was so emotionally overcome that I confess to having chickened out when it came to speaking to my second son personally and didn’t do it until much later that day.
The media was reporting that he had been killed near a chemical plant, …. my brother had actually been killed at a beach by a Carthaginian ruined village used by ex-pats to celebrate New Year (in daylight but he and a lady were caught as the sun-set),
The TV and press were then reporting that a British oil worker had been shot in Libya, but my younger brother wasn’t an oil worker. On the next day one of the very well-known national newspapers reported that an “Oil-Chief” had been killed, but since my youngest brother wasn’t an oil worker he certainly wasn’t an oil-chief. He was actually there for steam turbines to generate electricity for Tripoli.
There is a clear and loud assumption that if someone else said it then it must be true! Yet I knew what was being said was often an outright lie. You might think people sympathised but, in my experience, it was often quite hateful. One national asked if he was married ? and did his wife know he was with another woman (who was also shot)? Now notice that the very well-known national newspaper didn’t actually say he was married they had simply put it as a headline with a question mark at the end. However it was clear how the public understood the headline from that paper’s website because people were writing in saying my brother deserved to be shot for being with another woman! That was the kind of stuff I was enduring.
That isn’t the only offence. When I arranged the funeral the ITV news crew turned up and said they had been invited and tried to come in. Fortunately the staff were sensible enough to suggest they probably weren’t but they still camped out in the car park interviewing people (relations and friends) going into the funeral and coming out of it. How that could possibly be construed as being “in the national interest” is completely beyond me.
Ironically the local newspaper in the town where he had grown up as a teenager was the only paper that told the truth, the only one.
To cap it all, 9 months after the killing, I went to the inquest. The specialist post-mortem after the body was finally recovered (I had greeted the coffin at the airport) was by a senior specialist at Bedford hospital. The inquest court is at a place called Shefford on the edge of Bedford (Bedfordshire). My brother had been born in Sheffield (Yorkshire). There were many journalist with whom I did not want to talk although the BBC had filmed me going in. The Coroner correctly said my brother had been born in Sheffield but one of the journalists wrote down Shefford and I was amazed how many others copied on the basis that another newspaper had said it so it must have been right!
So I know from very personal experience how difficult it is to know what to do. I indeed don’t know the answer and my response was to avoid talking to the press except through written press releases. I ended up writing 6 different press releases.
The press releases were in writing like your open letter, but just like your open letter I experienced often people simply misquoting what had been said and wondering what planet they were even on?
Nonetheless I have stood fast speaking only to truth. Nonetheless I have been sidelined in work from time to time but at least not seriously so far, not in the sense of maltreatment but more that experience of people simply avoiding talking to me!
In my case my qualifications and experience is heavily in science and engineering but I am one of those annoying people that has theological qualifications as well that even includes a Masters degree in Theology from a University specialising in both Islam and Christianity. In the event I described, and even now, I experience politicians who are completely unwilling to properly study Islam or agree with anything that shows them that much of Islam is not the peaceful religion that is claimed. It is stunning ignorance on the part of politicians. So, like you, I encounter an amazing lack of intelligent argument from government that is a bizarre group-speak that is in total denial of reality. Islam is fundamentally against homosexuality and the list of nations that still include the death penalty for the LGBT are almost all Islamic nations, and yet the government and politicians attack Christianity instead of Islam!
God bless you and your family, Clive. I’m so so sorry to hear about your brother and his friend.
Thank you Alison
What my own experience shows is that the public and the media in particular can be surprisingly hateful in their responses. For the public this effect becomes amplified if they think their comment is anonymous. Through it all I don’t think there is a right answer as to how to respond so I too fell back in speaking the truth in writing and I then have had to accept the many responses that never properly read what I said!
Hi Clive,
IWhat a dreadful story. You and your whole family must have been devastated, and I know that the pain never goes away. The complexities of inquests, funerals and media intrusion simply reinforce the mental trauma.
Did you or your family receive any help from the National Homicide service through Victim Support?
What saddens me most about the abusive and judgemental criticisms of David’s posts is the fact that none of them actually address the issues he raises and the careful (and compassionate) arguments that he advances from Scripture, theology and history. Instead they engage purely in emotive responses to what they have perceived David to have been saying, based solely on their own personal feelings, prejudices and perceptions of what they have been ‘hearing’ him say. They would earn much greater respect if instead they advanced coherent, logical counter arguments based on the scriptures he actually quotes, demonstrating that they have truly engaged with his reasoning rather than misreading and twisting what he is saying.
This is very much the nature of debate and discussion sadly Thoules Straight and Crooked thinking should be compulsory reading
An open letter to David.
I am always sad when I read about Christians who are LGB or T being told the same old reasons again and again of why they are so wrong in being who they are and that they need to repent to avoid eternal damnation.
David, you may or may not know you are wasting your words. You haven’t said anything knew.
But if you are wrong and maybe you’re not, but maybe you are, that the 7 clobber verses you use to make your case have been interpreted incorrectly and that actually it is not a sin to live in a same sex monogomous relationship, then the rest of your letter is also incorrect.
It is so easy for a heterosexual person to write an open letter tearing into a gay person’s identity with words of judgment. As for me I say, instead of writing an open letter to attack Vicky why don’t you put your energy into writing open letters to those who don’t know Christ, who don’t love God as themselves and don’t love their neighbour. That would be a really good use of your time.
Matt
Matt – I didn’t use 7 clobber verses (maybe you were just sending your normal letter?). I didn’t write an open letter tearing into a gay person’s identity (that is your rather shallow way of interpreting what I wrote)…and I have written many letters to those who don’t know Christ. I also think it is a good use of my time standing up to the intimidation and attacks on the word of God which are so prevalent in our society. I will always proclaim Christ – and sometimes that means opposing false teaching and those who would detract from the teaching of Christ.
God bless you, David, for your firm stand, you’re a blessing and a great influence to us all on that score. Keep up the good fight. I know how disheartening it can be to be misunderstood, misquoted and slaughtered on social media.
As a light-hearted aside you might like to catch episode 7 of The Orville, “Majority Rule”. God forbid, but we’re not as far off it as we think.
I don”t know if you are going to use my comment David. That’s up to you. But I am confused at getting back from you a security concern about my comment on your post possibly not being encrypted. Almost every time I attempt to.comment positively on one of your posts I seem to have to reset my WordPress password which I find strange.
Keep up the good work in all the strength that Christ gives you.
Keith Rowbory
I have no idea why that is….sorry…Will try to find out.
Indeed there is a rot in the contemporary church – nothing new under the sun there. Even a casual glance at Paul’s pastoral epistles shows this to be as true in first century middle eastern context as in contemporary Scotland.
But concerning as that is, this is not what concerns me most. What does, is the bullying – in all it’s forms. Having religious freedom, secular freedom or any form of ideological freedom must surely come part and parcel with not forcing one’s beliefs on another to require such freedom to exist.
It seems, does it not, that rather than living in a post-modern utopia what is emerging is an Orwellian nightmare where those that are not complicit with the dominant narrative contained within a “ministry of truth” are subjected to a “ministry of love” which is actually a place of fear.
Seems not unlike what Jesus went through at the hands of both the religious and the secular. Those of us that break out of this programming, of being controlled through fear call other’s bluff, comforting the disturbed and disturbing the comfortable, helping those of us who are lost.
Real security, freedom, love and belonging can never be found in any human, human movement or religious law. Instead, Jesus reveals divine truth and love.
Adam,
Good to see you back. Have you been OK ?
Geoff
David, you thoroughly deserved the reaction you got to that book review.
How so, Don? Well it was a compliment! What would be the point of writing dishonest, anodyne stuff, laced with apologies, hugs and kisses? Few people would read it and fewer still would care. The thing is that the truth almost always sparks interest in people when it’s clearly presented. But that doesn’t mean they’re going to like it. Many people decide they don’t like the truth when they hear it – it offends them.
You were neither rude nor unkind; you simply engaged with the book and dared to be honest about what you found in it. So of course you’ve hit a raw nerve and, in so doing, exposed the true nature of the agenda to which the author and her supporters owe their allegiance. And the form which that reaction has taken (abuse by the mob) can only enlighten people about the coercive nature of her campaign and the forces that lie behind it.
So don’t be hurt or downcast by the reaction: it’s exactly what God’s people have experienced all down the ages. In that sense, although it may hurt for a few moments, it’s a sign that you did the right thing. The truth that has set you free can set other people free too – they need to hear it. You’ve been true to your Lord and Master – nothing else matters.
David, I’m sorry to say that there is no way of expressing the truth about God’s design for human sexuality without being caricatured and vilified. No matter how generous, charitable and clear you are – and you are all those things – if you do not say what the LGBT protagonists want to hear then in their eyes you are an enemy who deserves neither respect nor a hearing. So I don’t see any merit in the arguments of those who say that if you would just adopt a different tone, more people would be able to hear what you are saying. It doesn’t work that way!
I’ve never given the LGBT+ topic much thought, but after reading this I spent a few minutes looking to see how the supporters of so-called sexual freedom are able to justify their position in the light of the various passages in the Bible which are sometimes termed the ‘bullet verses’. And after doing that I really do think somebody should challenge their interpretations of those passages, as to me the interpretations fail to take their broader contexts into account, even though they claim to be true to context. They also fail to notice (or more likely deliberately ignore) the numerous places in the Bible where marriage is defined as between one man and one woman. We need to be reminded of these passages time and time again.
Hi David
Sorry to hear what you’re going through at the hands of the ‘liberals’.
On paedophilia, I agree about the great dangers here, with children being deemed capable of giving consent across a range of areas at younger and younger ages, and academia increasingly establishing paedophilia as a sexual orientation (which, lest we forget, is a protected characteristic against which discrimination is impermissible).
Have you come across Peter Tatchell’s involvement in the movement to normalise sex with children? This is very good link: https://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=436
Quote (from 1997): ‘Several of my friends gay and straight, male and female had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy.’
This is a man welcomed by the Prime Minister and other elites and who contributes regularly to mainstream media.
Thank you Will for raising this issue. I keep telling people that Peter Tatchell has consistently worked for lowering the age of consent for young men. It was 21 and was lowered to 18 and then he managed to get it lowered to 16. So young impressionable teenagers, who we know do not develop maturity until around 22, are now at risk of all the diseases prevalent in the male homosexual community. The statistics show clearly the dangers of disease in these age groups.
Gavin Ashenden has stated that he considers paedophilia is the next target for the “progressives”.
Not quite certain what exactly you think paedophilia is if it isn’t a sexual orientation. What do you suggest it is?
Well, I suppose if you accept the concept of sexual orientation then it is one. It’s certainly a disposition to certain sexual preferences. The problem with it being classified as a ‘sexual orientation’ in the current culture is that sexual orientation is a protected characteristic against which discrimination is illegal. So if it becomes established in law as an orientation – well, you can see all the bad places that’s likely to take us.
‘Do not be surprised if the world hates you. They hated me as well, and the prophets before me.’
Light and darkness have nothing in common.
‘This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil .
God knows all things; He knows who truly follow Him and he also knows exactly whose conscience has already failed them. , sothat they may think they are also Christians, but in reality they follow their own will (or understanding ) and no longer follow the way of Christ, which is clearly laid down Scripture.
David,
Stuart Hamblen wrote a song of consolation about the storms of this life.
These things shall pass and some great morning
We’ll look back and smile at heartaches we have known
So don’t forget when shadows gather
The Lord our God is still the King upon his throne.
A rose looks grey at midnight but the flame is just asleep
And steel is strong because it knew the hammer and white heat
These things shall pass and life be sweeter
When love and faith are strong they cannot long endure
These things shall pass so don’t you worry
The darkest time is just one hour before dawn
So hold up high and face your troubles
And don’t despair if you must face them all alone
Yours,
John/.
I have prayed often for you in the last 12 hours David. Thank you for all you do and say. I have had an experience with one or two similarities in the last week but on a much much smaller scale.
I spoke with someone at church about their belief and acceptance of certain conspiracy theories that have been brought into our church by another man. I was trying to convince them their view was wrong and to look at the opposing evidence.
However, two days later, the person said they were leaving our church because of my harshness. They had been crying on and off for two days they said. I have thought since that this comment was rather odd being as they had still continued to play an on-line word game with me during those two days. However, I was so taken aback and anxious that my immediate response was to say, “I’m so sorry, we don’t need to speak about these things again; please don’t leave because of what I said to you.” But the more I have thought since about our conversation , the more I know I was not harsh, even if they perceived me to be. I was simply presenting evidence to try to make them think. The person has now gone to another church (where most of the people there know me) and has told the pastor and some others that they have left our church because of my harshness.
I have been helped by your comment above, “It’s very hard to disagree with a hurt person who has already determined that their hurt is due to anyone who dares to disagree with their new found ideology and identity.”
Be of good courage David. So many of us are extremely grateful for you.
God bless you.
Dear David,
‘You can win some of the people all the time or all the people some of the time but you cannot win all the people all the time!’ (Attrib to Abraham Lincoln, but I could be wrong). We continue to pray into this whole mess and well done you. Some can and will engage on the evidence, but for others were you the Archangel Gabriel it would still be a lost cause. They cannot hear!
Which part, specifically?
So much of it is open to interpretation and has been since it was compiled.
If Vicky’s experiences are so raw and she is so vunerable etc why write and publish a book for anyone to read or was that only for the sympathy vote? Where is Justin Welby in all of this, can’t he speak out in favour of Biblical truth? Oh no, he doesn’t appear to does he? It seems he is fully aligned to all of this anti-biblical propaganda with Vicky as his darling by the looks of it. Total disgrace, poor CoE flock with no spiritual shepherd.
As for making sure that memories are in fact true, yes we as Christians are not to make false accusations which many seem to be doing or misconstruing incidents in order to discredit someone. I can’t remember where I read it but did that not happen recently to a elder in the USA named Paige Patterson who was over one of the theological colleges? Correct me if I’m wrong with names etc…….just trying to remember correctly.
I do not apolgise, we are called to different and higher standards, tough yes, challenging yes, get it wrong yes, yet our allegiance is to the Christ of the Bible not our own imaginations. How I yearn for His return.
Keep going David, Jesus is by your right hand.
There are so many diverse, intelligent and ‘reasonable’ responses supporting David and it is uplifting to see that there are still Christians, like Sue Castle, who hold a firm view of Scripture and Christians who can ‘use’ their minds – because I’m convinced we live at a time where we have gone from being told ‘how’ to think to ‘what’ to think. It’s unthinkable! To give into that sort of ‘mind control’ would be a slow suicide.
I would love to get involved in all those potential conversations – I’ve said it before – don’t bother going to university – you could get a really good education on this blog but time is limited, not least for David himself who has to monitor comments and choose which to post and reply to. It’s become a bit of a social networking site for me as I recognise the style and content of regular contributors and I have gleaned a lot of useful information and will continue to do so.
Thanks Geoff for the rudimentary education on “Queer Theory” – I had no idea. I will copy and paste for future reference.
I can see that the argument against gay Christianity could be undertaken from many angles and argued well – but I think because VB is saying that she is a gay Christian, I would agree with cumbriasmithy on the importance of biblical interpretation. The case for gay Christianity can’t be based on feelings as David points out, or from some mystical experiential Christianity pulled from the air; or from the opinions of non-Christians who dictate what Christianity should look like in practice. The Bible is the Christian’s manual. Based on Geoff’s indication that Peter’s dream is used in Queer Theory – it doesn’t take more than simple reasoning to conclude that in Acts 10, Peter’s dream is referring to the Gentiles – not doing away with the OT law (while details like circumcision or food may be an issue these are not moral issues – God’s moral standards remain surely). Misusing Scripture is what Cult leaders do.
It is one thing to disagree with or disobey Scripture but to use the Word of God to justify sinful behaviour is to misuse Scripture – and to start a movement using misinterpreted Scriptural verses, for our own ends, is to start a Cult.