A Real Consultation Part 2 – Can Women be Elders?
This is part two of my dialogue with a former women elder. Part one is here – https://ap.org.au/2026/05/08/a-real-consultation-a-dialogue-with-a-female-elder/
(Note that I will gradually be switching most of my future articles to my substack account – https://substack.com/@theweeflea)
My friend’s comments are in italics. For those who asked – yes this is a real person, and yes, her comments are unedited! We begin with her reply to my first response.
To THE WEEFLEA
Reply to your notes of the 8th May.
I will begin as you did with the most important part of my problem. That being the need for more spiritual input than I am not getting from the pulpit.
Maybe I am expecting more than our preacher has to give. So that is my reason to look for the input that I need, elsewhere.
I have been part of Bible study groups for many years and while that has been a good way to know and understand the Bible it isn’t as enlightening as hearing it preached with depth and passion.
Recently I have been fortunate to attend a church where I have experienced a preacher who does make the bible stories come alive. Unfortunately, this church is too far from my home to attend regularly. However, with modern technology, I can listen to his sermons online.
I am sure God has a plan for me, so I will continue to pray that He will guide me in the right direction.
Dear LCG (Lady Chosen by God),
I am going to split your response into two parts. Firstly this ‘matter of first importance’, and then the secondary matter of women elders.
Thank you for being so open. To be honest, I used to have very little sympathy with those who said that they were struggling with church or not getting enough from the pulpit. I guess as a preacher I had a vested interest in that (see my first response – despite the advice that preachers should repeat things often I won’t repeat what I said there!). I was wrong.
To me, the problem that you are describing is really serious. It’s like going to a restaurant and being given rubbish food, or at least food that is not adequate. In that case, you go away either sick or hungry. There is, however, a good side to your problem – it indicates that you have a genuine spiritual hunger and thirst. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst!
Without knowing who your preacher is, I cannot comment on your particular experience, and even if I did know, I’m not sure I would be able to say anything. Sometimes when we say we are not being fed, it’s because we are not listening, or we are not willing to digest what we have heard, or we are just disobedient. But I think for far too many people, including yourself, it IS the case that they are hungry because they not being fed. They are looking for something. They want some spiritual sustenance. And they are being fed gruel. This is the opposite of the problem described in Hebrews 5:12-14 – where the writer complains about Christians who should have been ready for meat, wanting only milk. Now we have people who are looking for meat, and all they are ever fed from the pulpit is milk. Cliches, memes, poorly prepared, ill-thought-out, and badly delivered sermons.
You have an excellent insight about the value of Bible studies, or at least Bible study groups. I think it is a good way to know and understand the Bible, but you are right, it isn’t as enlightening as hearing it preached with depth and passion. It is through the foolishness of preaching that people are saved, and I would also say that it is through the foolishness of preaching that we are discipled and built up and challenged. I remember one colleague telling me in my early years in the ministry that 80% of his pastoral work was done in the pulpit.
We need to pray that our preachers would preach, as you describe it, with depth and passion. We are also privileged in our society with the technological advantages to be able to listen to great preachers from other parts of the world, and sometimes even preachers who are dead. For example, I listen to a Tim Keller sermon every week. But I have to say that listening to someone online is nowhere near the same as being in a church service where the depth and the passion and the power and the presence of the Spirit come across. It’s a bit like the difference between looking at a painting or a photo of some beautiful scenery and actually walking in that scenery.
So yes, I would suggest you use Bible study, and yes, I would suggest you listen to sermons online, and yes, I would suggest that perhaps above all, you read the Bible yourself. But I hope and pray for you that one day you will be in a church where you come home after every service with what I would call the ‘wow factor’. For me, that is really hard to describe. In the Scots language we would say “it’s better felt than telt.”
Just a word of personal testimony. Two Sundays ago, I came home feeling the ‘wow factor’. I long for that. I’m an experiential Christian. Last Sunday, I came home with more like the ‘yuck factor’. I felt it was tired. I felt that it was more like ploughing through mud than soaring through the skies. I felt sorry for my poor congregation.
Of course, God has a plan for you. He has a plan for your good, not for your ill. And as you pray that he will guide you, I’m certain that he will. What does James say? ‘If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. (James 1:5-6) But let’s keep thinking about this because it is most important. Now on to the latter part of your message …
Now back to the question of women elders.
You have written that we need to understand what an elder is. Can you tell me why there are elders in the Presbyterian church and what are they called to do. You have stated that being called to be an elder is not a reward or promotion for being good or a particular sex. You say they are called by God to do the role. So, I ask is it not possible that women are called to do such a role? Can you tell why you believe that women should not be elders? I understand there is a biblical reason.
When I mentioned that Women didn’t seem to be held in the same esteem as men, or were not good enough, you stated that it was no more true than saying men who were not elders were not good enough. I don’t think that argument stands up to scrutiny because men are still able to become elders. Maybe, we should consider how it feels to be women who are called too eldership, but they are not allowed to answer that call.
It will be interesting to see if the Presbyterian church will progress if women elders are excluded.
As regard women elders, you are getting to the crux of the matter. You’re asking the right questions. Firstly, what is an elder? Secondly, what does it mean to be called? Thirdly, why can women not be elders? And then you make an observation that you wonder if the Presbyterian Church will progress if women elders are excluded. So, let’s deal with those one by one.
What is an elder? According to 1 Peter 5:2, elders are shepherds of God’s flock that is under their care. I would describe this as under shepherds because Christ is the chief shepherd. The New Testament Church had a very simple structure. Each congregation had elders and deacons. The elders were responsible for the spiritual well-being of the congregation. They were to pastor the congregation. The deacons had responsibility for the material and physical well-being of the congregation. Elders are not called to be church managers. They are not like members of the board. My own view is that elders should have very little to do with money and property. That should be the responsibility of the deacons. Elders are to pastor by visiting, praying with, and reading the Scriptures with the flock that is under their care, that is the congregation. Elders will also make decisions about the spiritual direction of the church.
Now let’s consider the question of calling. You seem to be using that in a slightly different way than I would do. Quite often when people talk about calling, they’re talking about what they internally, personally feel. But I think in the New Testament it is very different. First of all, calling is something that God does. He calls us. The name I use for you LCG (Lady Chosen by God) from 2 John 1 is an example of that. And there is little evidence that he called by manipulating our emotions so that we feel called!
Secondly, as regards calling to office within the church, the means that he uses is through the church. It’s the church that calls us. For example, I cannot just announce that I am going to be a minister in the church or an elder in the church because I feel that is what God has called me to.
Again, you will forgive me being personal, but when I went to the training of the ministry committee of the Free Church in Scotland, I was asked why I thought I was called to be a minister. I told them that I didn’t know. That it was up to them to decide. That made what was going to be a very short interview into a very long one! Personally, I did have a sense of internal call. I was pretty sure that this was what God was calling me to, but I could have been wrong, and I had to wait the call of the church. I have far too often met people who say that they were called to a particular role in the church, and as it turns out, they were not suitable for it at all. We cannot go by our internal feelings.
Which leads us on to the next question: If the church is to determine who is called to be elders, what criteria should it use? I would argue that the main passages are to be found in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9. In both cases, one of the qualifications is that the elder be male. It is not possible for a woman to fulfil the qualifications in these passages. And for me, that is the end of the story. I remember somebody once saying about me that “the trouble with David is that he’s a feminist at heart, but he believes the Bible”. I think he meant it as an insult. I took it as a great honour.
In 1 Timothy, the qualifications, e.g., husband of one wife, father of believing children, manages his own household well, are framed in male headship and family headship language, which by definition does exclude women from being elders. In Titus, Paul instructs Titus to appoint elders in every town and repeats the same language and criteria as he did to Timothy. I think there is an underlying principle here that is also taught in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 where Paul says that women are not to teach or exercise authority over a man. This indicates to me that the authoritative office of elder must be held by men. Now, it is possible to challenge those passages, but I think you really have to jump through hoops to take away the plain and straightforward meaning.
And when we look at the practice of the church in the first century and beyond, it is clear what these passages mean. Now, this is not to say that women do not have any role in leadership in the church, or indeed that women are not to teach. For example, in Titus 2:3-5, Paul instructs the older women to teach and train the younger women. In Acts 21: 8-9, we’re told that Philip had four daughters who prophesied. In Romans 16, we are given a list of women who clearly were quite prominent in the church, including Phoebe, who was a deaconess.
Let’s return to the question of women not being held in the same esteem as men. You say that my argument that that would also apply to men who are not elders does not apply because men are still able to become elders. And I would say no, unqualified men are not able to become elders. But they are no less a member of the body of Christ, and no less valued, than men who can become elders, in the same way as women are no less valued as part of the body of Christ.
I think one of the questions I would ask you is this: Is there anything that you did as an elder which you cannot now do as a woman within the congregation? I’m not talking about voting on a session. I am talking about praying, caring for other people, teaching, evangelizing, showing mercy to the poor, being involved in the practical as well as the spiritual side of the church.
I note that you return to the question of the call and to how people feel. I remember somebody saying to me that he was called to be an evangelist, and someone else saying that the calling involved being a Sunday school teacher. In both instances, they did not have the gifts or the qualifications that were necessary. Should I have just said to them: “You carry on and be an evangelist, and you carry on and be a teacher because you feel that you should be?” Obviously not.
I think that’s probably enough for this time. I would love to hear your further thoughts.
But before I go, let’s just come on to your last comment.
I have to agree that, A church being approved off by the world is a church compromised.
I am glad that you agree that we should not do this because it’s what the world wants or because the world will laugh at us or call us old-fashioned or against equality, or that we do not fit NSW ‘health and safety regulations. Just because we do not have women elders. The approval of the world is not what we seek. The approval of the Lord is what we look for. On that, we are absolutely agreed.
I should also say something about your comment, and I’m sorry I missed this out, that it will be interesting to see if the Presbyterian Church will progress if women elders are excluded. My experience is that many Presbyterian churches have. By the way, I don’t think that we will progress just because women elders are excluded. We need much, much more than that. But I think our progression will be hindered if we ignore the word of God on this issue. My own church back in Scotland has progressed and grown in the past 10 years, and it doesn’t have women elders. All of the Presbyterian churches in Australia, other than in New South Wales, do not permit women elders. Some of them are progressing very nicely.
I think the key for progression is another question that we perhaps need to discuss. But one thing I will say, it is not good to ignore the word of God when the word of God is clear, nor is it good for the church to use the word of God to oppress, patronise or belittle women. I do not believe that not having women elders does that, although I do accept that some of those who are against women elders might!
I look forward to hearing your reply.
As ever, your brother in Christ,
David.
A Real Consultation – A Dialogue between a Male minister and a Female Elder -AP