Maybe I’ve got this one wrong. Maybe the first Pride festival in Perth held last weekend IS something to be proud of? After all the press and politicians are unanimous in their praise – even the clergy joined in. The local Council thought it was so valuable that they contributed £7,000 towards the running costs. Surely only the most sanctimonious, placard waving bigot could have any questions at all about it? Have a look at this summary from STV news. Surely this is something for Perth to be proud of.
So lets imagine that the press, the politicians and the pastors are all right. What would it mean. Rev. Scott Burton explained to the crowd. Here is his full speech.
Lets say that Scott (and the politicians and press) were right. What would it mean? Apart from ‘love, love, love’?
It would mean that the Bible got it wrong – and we have to, in his words, work out ‘what these ancient words mean in the world today’ and ‘rewrite our understanding of the Bible’.
It would mean that Jesus got it wrong when he spoke of marriage as being between a man and a woman. We his followers would have to correct him and enlighten the Light of the world.
It would mean that the Church throughout the ages, the Church of Scotland up until last year and most of the Church today, has got it wrong and needs to repent and apologise, as Rev Scott did. (although I note in passing how easy it is to say sorry for other peoples sins!).
There really are no two ways about this. Forget all the talk of ‘respectful dialogue’, if Scott is correct then those in the Church who hold to the teaching of Jesus that marriage is between a man and a woman should be on their knees in abject repentance as though they were racists who had been converted to a more biblical loving position.
It would also mean that at last the society and the church were at one – sharing the same values, having the same agenda. Suddenly everything is brought into alignment, everything is peace, love and harmony as the inevitable march of progress continues….
It does seem inevitable doesn’t it? Yesterday for example Vicky Beeching was on BBC Hardtalk getting some softtalk and telling us all that change in the Church was inevitable. A message she repeated as her ‘mission’ on ITV’s ‘Lorraine’ that same morning.
” ‘If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.’ George Orwell
Another Perth minister has a different perspective about what went on in his city – Rev. Paul Gibson of Knox Free Church stated:
“This was a desperately sad and tragic moment for the witness of the Christian gospel in Perth and indeed in our land. In apologising for the hurt which the church has caused to those in the LGBT community, it could hardly be missed that what Mr Burton was really apologising for was the plain teaching of Holy Scripture and God’s accepted order for sexual intimacy. To do so at the opening of an LGBT event was effectively the same as encouraging those who feel trapped in a lifestyle that the bible describes as sexual immorality, to simply carry on. Mr Burton spoke in his speech of love, but if he really loved those he was addressing he would have surely told them of Christ, whose mercy and forgiveness always goes hand-in-hand with His grace of repentance – a turning away from sin.”
Now…indulge me for a moment – what if Paul is right? What if Scott, the press and the politicians have got it all wrong? What would that mean?
It would mean that much of the church have turned away from the teaching of the Jesus they profess to follow. A disaster and the end of the church.
It would mean that instead of apologising to the current in-groups in society, Scott should be apologising to God – for the horrendous sin of distorting and perverting His gracious Word.
It would mean that instead of turning towards Love, we are turning away from Him. Chanting ‘love, love, love; without being able to define Love or distinguish it from lust is not only meaningless but harmful. Its like a chef shouting ‘food, food, food’ whilst never cooking anything or having anything to offer, other than poison. Paul in Romans 1 (the passage at the end of this article) says that rather than bringing in love, turning away from God means we end up with ‘no love’.
It would mean that instead of helping people we would be harming them. Telling them the lie that ‘you are who you are, you are who God created you to be’, rather than pointing out that we are all ‘dead in sins and trespasses’ and that we all need the new birth, a new heart and a new creation. Telling people on the road to destruction (all of us by nature) that they are on the right path is about the most cruel and unloving thing that anyone could do.
It would mean that the society and its leaders would regard us as shameful, evil and not worthy members of their society.
It would mean that Perths’ Pride is actually Perths Shame.
Real Repentance.
Unlike the cartoon version of Christians who believe the Bible presented by Rev. Scott – those of us who follow Jesus, should be weeping for the city of Perth and the nation of Scotland. We are not going to stand at Pride parades with banners and signs (we don’t use the weapons of this world), but we are going to pray. And we are going to proclaim the Good News of the Jesus who was prepared to go against the zeitgeist of his day and take on the powers that be (the politicians, the press and the priests) – without bitterness and without anger and without hatred. We too will say sorry….we will repent – of our own indifference, lack of love and passion. Those of us who are in the Church of Scotland (especially the Presbytery of Perth) will be calling on Scott to repent, not to rejoice in his apostasy. Rivers of tears run down from our eyes because Gods law is not obeyed. We will plead before the Lord not to let us go our own way…and to turn us back to his…before we destroy ourselves and our children.
I leave you with Pauls words to the Christians in 1st Century Rome which are as relevant today as they were then…(and don’t need to be rewritten or re-interpreted by Rev. Scott or his colleagues).
Rom. 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Rom. 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Rom. 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom. 1:28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”
‘Community Hits Back’ – The Pride Intimidation Begins…
Ozzie Observations Week 11 – Pride, Prejudice, Posh Schools and Hope for Australia
Full Services from St Peters – What the Bible Says About Sexuality and Jesus, The Word
Footnote – The Courier reported on this blog – here
Perhaps this would be a useful place for Scott to start. Forgiveness requires justice to be done also.
file:///storage/emulated/0/Download/20180814_en_god_forgives_and_is_still_just.mp3
as a born again christian,who lived a gay life style for many a year.jesus came into my life and changed me from the inside out.you cant be a gay christian,you may have same sex attrations as a christian .but dont live with the sin,give it to jesus.we truly are living in the endtimes when we hear so called ministers of the word preaching a lie.the word is repent.end off.ian krawiec
I do not know whether commenting here helps. I am familiar with Scott’s philosophy of life , and always been aware that he would be a very welcomed and desirable candidate for the Church of Scotland ministry , while any appearance of myself before the Selection Committee would have resulted in rejection. One reason for not submitting an application.
During the seventies , eighties and nineties , and possibly still today , the evangelicals in the Church of Scotland were content to gather together in their small corner( probably Crieff Hydro or St Ninian’s )and play spiritual footsie, rather than tackle the blight of ecclesiastical error in 121 , George St Edinburgh , or in the General Assembly. The evangelical silence within the GA in those years to the present, was, and still is deafening.
Scott and his ilk have to be prayed for. The are the most miserable of people and the blind of the blind .Jesus called to his Father concerning his crucifixion and rejection of him and his teaching, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
” O Almighty and Everlasting Father , what have we allowed this land of ours to become. Please , please , please have mercy upon us.”
I would have a couple of questions for Rev. Burton if I met him.
Firstly I would want to know whether he believes God has changed His mind about sexuality, and if so, why and when did He do that, and what evidence does Rev. Burton have.
Secondly I would want to know if Rev. Burton would present the same speech at an Adultery Pride rally, an Incest Pride rally, or perhaps a Pedophilia Pride rally.
Finally, David, I’m so glad you have quoted so much of Romans 1 here. It’s vitally important that we’re all constantly reminded of the scriptures which are being ignored so blatantly.
What evidence could you possibly expect Burton to produce to satisfy you? What evidence is there ever for personal revelation?
Exactly. I wouldn’t expect him to provide any evidence at all other than to repeat the ‘love, love, love’ mantra.
Surely you are not compairing a consensual relationship entered into between two adults to the crimes of insest and pedophilia? Whats wrong with you. Its this sort of bigoted nonscene which makes people turn away from the church. Not alot of the love of christ in evidance here. You should be ashamed of yourself
Rachael – Yes – I am comparing (although they are not direct comparisons) as are you. Note how the language you uses prejudges the issue. You say that incest and pedophilia are crimes – as homosexuality used to be. The question is whether it is right they are are crimes. If ‘love is love’ then what criteria do we use to determine what sexualities should be acted upon and expressed. It appears from your post that you think that more than two adults (polygamy) is wrong, that children or young people having sex is wrong, and that two brothers having sex is wrong. I would agree…but the question is – why do you think that? Other than the yeuch factor? What gives you the right to say to, for example, two brothers who ‘love’ one another that they should not be married? Given your own criteria? As for judging me re the ‘love of Christ’ – do you think that Christ did not show the ‘love of Christ’ when he said that marriage was between a man and a woman and when he said that adultery was wrong?
Rachael, do you read the Bible, believe it and take it to heart? If so, how do you reconcile the various verses in Leviticus 18 where it says the following and where these various practices are forbidden. If you can reconcile them with the ‘consensual relationships’ attitude I’ll be very interested. Adultery, incest and pedophilia are all listed together with homosexual practices here, so do we have the right to separate them, and if so, what is our justification?
‘“No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.
‘“Do not dishonour your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonour your father.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonour you.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.
‘“Do not dishonour your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonour your brother.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
‘“Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
‘“Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with your neighbour’s wife and defile yourself with her.
‘“Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
‘“Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
Hi DavidGreetings from Shetland. You are booked to visit us for Bible Week next September 2019.Very interesting article. I wonder if Perth Council will be happy to contribute and sponsor an Easter March if this was organised?Kind regards Eric
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I actually don’t mind what those with LGBT urges do as long as it’s in the privacy of their own homes (i.e. I don’t wish to see them all over the media/streets with their 6 colour rainbow but at least adults can avert their eyes and take their custom elsewhere unlike innocent children especially in schools), they’re not pretending to be Christians (which in my opinion also applies to Christians and clergy who support them), they’re not indoctrinating innocent children and the tax payer isn’t paying for their activities (whether medical operations or tax paying for their parades).
“Oh that you would rend the heavens! That you would come down! That the mountains might shake at Your presence – as fire burns brushwood, as fire causes water to boil – to make your name known to your adversaries, that the nations may tremble at your presence! When you did awesome things for which we did not look, You came down, the mountains shook at your presence.”
The Christian church does realise it didn’t invent marriage, doesnt it?
You may still get married in church but you can’t get divorced in one.
And what is alll this talk of LGBGT indoctrination? Pot – kettle – black?
Do all ‘true’ Christians apparently find sexual attraction to the opposite sex when they mature…..lucky them.
God invented marriage not the Church. LGBT indoctrination is LGBT indoctrination. And just because you are sexually attracted to someone does not make it right that you are sexually active with them – does it?
I think there may be a slight impass in are understanding of marriage. A binding union between people existed in areas before Christianity moved in and still does.
I am sexually actrated to women and am sexually actively with them. If I were sexually actracted to the opposite sex I would be sexually actively with them and I would think it right.
Why would it be wrong?
I wouldn’t be bothered by some dictat from ancient texts from an unknown number of authors that says it is.
Thankfully our laws have moved on from such backward thinking.
Marriage is something given to us by God. Would be interested to know about your binding unions that existed before Moses…
You ask what would be wrong about your acting out your sexual attractions? What if you were sexually attracted to animals? or children? Would you regard banning such as somehow ‘backward thinking’. Ironically your view that you should be able to sleep with whoever you want, whenever you want, is not progressive – it is regressing to a Greco-Roman-Pagan view of the world – complete with its sex slavery, infanticide, and rich exploiting the poor….we couldn’t go back to that , could we?
Can I just ask how you would feel if a family member or a well loved and very close friend came out to you as gay? Would you abandon them? Would you forget about all the aspects of their personality that you loved and judge them on this alone? Or would your love for them open your eyes to the fact that they are still the person you know and love, it’s just that they love someone from the same gender. I think this will be the only way that your heart will change.
You can. And I would not abandon them. Any more than I would abandon someone who committed adultery or slept around. I would still love them and seek their repentance and help. I don’t think that your pretentious and shallow advice will change my heart…only God can change the heart!
Literally terrifying.
What in the world does “a new era of gender equality” mean? How does a pride festival advance “gender equality” when the real inequalities are rooted in biology and the mainstream LGBT movement increasingly holds biology irrelevant? Being a feminised or effeminate man doesn’t help women, being a decent one does. And it doesn’t help either when the women emulate the more useless specimens of manhood and call it equality.
A good quote from Rev Gibson.
Easy to see why Rev Burton gets more of the attention than the actual event – the whole world knows he ought not be accepting of something which God has not intended to be acceptable.
Everyone has their “Jesus, I don’t think you were quite right about this, let me help you get up to date” moments one way or another, but fortunately most of us are never made such a public spectacle of. Sad and sobering.
I don’t like “as a” statements very much, but I thought I’d give a word of encouragement to you Mr Robertson.
As a man who was consumed by LGBT identitarianism for some time at university, who genuinely thought I was gay, and then came to Christ more fully (I kinda had a gnostic-ish belief in what I thought to be the triune Christian God before) through the witness of a specific Church, and who now is engaged (to a kind, Godly and beautiful woman) , I can say that the gospel you preach is far better, kind and loving than any of the Beeching and affirmation crowds.
For me, it angers me deeply when I hear LGBT affirmation from professing Christians, as to me it feels like they want me to shove my face back in my vomit so to speak. Their gospel is one of slavery to ones sel-made identity (read idol), where yours is one of freedom in Christ. I originally wanted for the affirmation arguments to be true, but now I consider them utterly appalling. They effectively deny Christ’s power to save us, and create a clean heart in us. A “clean heart” needing to be created after all requires the current heart to be filthy.
And no; I’m not some individual that has been brainwashed by “gay-cure” therapy, which is just the other side of the coin of the heresy that dominates LGBT identitarianism (Pelagianism). I also don’t think my experience is universal, the struggle is life-long for most, nor do I think I’m somehow a special Christian, merely one who has been changed by the awesome power abd love of God.
The call from Christ is a love that preaches self-denial (Mark, Luke and Matthew all have Jesus telling people to “deny” themselves in order to “follow” Him Matthew 16:24, Luke 9:23, Mark8:34) not of self acceptence as Beeching espouses. Jesus destroyed the false God in my heart and changed my nature. I’m not perfect by any means (there is still sin in my heart in thought, word and deed that pops up), but I know God can change anyone, for He did change and is changing me.
So Mr Robertson, I bless you my dear brother. Your blog is a blessing to me and your posts on this issue are expressing the true love, rather than those that say peace, peace where there is no peace. Keep it up, and may God bless you continually, keep you steadfast in the Spirit!
Thank you brother – for such an encouraging and helpful response….your comment could be repeated many times….we thank the Lord….
Hi I totally agree with you. I lived for many years in the gay lifestyle until God called me out of it and I have been celibate for 18 years. It is a very painful lifestyle and God’s call on my life is to pray for the LGBT community and get others to do the same. However having tried to get the churches to come together in prayer for several months before it, it was nothing short of pathetic I invited 8 churches to come together and I organised several meetings with an average attendance of 4 people, the churches in this city are asleep when it comes to prayer for this issue but quick to condemn it. If the church want to see change in this area they have to wake up and pray. Fantastic testimony
It is a shame you have not been able to live your one and only life without having to describe it as ‘a very painful lifestyle ‘.
My heart is saddened by such an expression.
Gordon – thanks for the reminder. I will pray daily for the LGBT community from now on. Also to Thoshammer – thank you for the call to be emboldened in witness.
David Robertson has been a great example to us all for his faithful, bold witness – despite being continually on the receiving end of extreme vitriol. I was reminded yesterday in James 4:4 that “anybody who is friends with the world is an enemy of God”. I am sorry to say but Scott Burton needs to know this. He was not a real friend to the people gathered at Pride at all – but yours truly (something David Robertson calls himself) has to once again pick up the pieces and speak out – for the sake of those who need to hear the truth.
A sad but predictable consequence of opening the window and throwing the Bible out as the sole authority for Christian life and doctrine.
You open the door to the wind of political correctness that is blowing this week.
But don’t worry if you don’t like it, because like the Scottish weather, it’ll change in 20 minutes.
When they ban the Bible and have pride Bible burning events, I wonder who is going to be the guy at the stake, given that Patrick Hamilton is a warning of what can happen when fauls religions have positions in power in Scottish sociaty like those we see in the parliament and the Cof S.
Remembering always, God is sovereign and His plans will not be thwarted.
In Harrogate this morning I saw the ultimate in ‘gay’ blasphemy. St Peters Church has a gay flag stripy cross on their communion table. Flying a flag is one thing, turning the cross into a symbol of sin-praise is gut wrenching.
Pride, of and in itself, is something which Christians are to shun. It is at the root of sin, its substance and essence.
Pride in Pride is a double indictment. It is the antithesis of humility and self abnegation, supremely seen in the shame of the Lord of Glory, Jesus Christ, on the cross.
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” 1 John2:16 NASB
Pride no longer rankles, even in secular life where once it did, but is fostered in self affirmation, self agrandisment, self promotion, and blowing tumpets, fanfares, festivals, which are so far from the redemptive feasts and festivals of scripture that are signposts forward and echoes of exodus, past and are fulfilled in Christ and the ultimate redemption and exodus and marriage feast consumation at the end of this age with Christ and His bride.
Ray Kelly says, “Patrick Hamilton is a warning of what can happen when fauls religions have positions in power in Scottish society.” Well, I don’t approve of executing people just because of what they believe and burning is a particularly nasty way of executing people. But then, so is hanging and drawing. So, just as I disapprove of the burning of Patrick Hamilton I hope his modern-day supporters will equally disapprove of the hanging and drawing of Fr John Ogilvie at Glasgow Cross in 1615. But is what happened to Fr John Ogilvie ‘a warning of what can happen when fauls religions have positions in power in Scottish society’? Unfortunately executing people because of their religious beliefs is not confined just to one religion. Oh, and another very nasty way of executing people is to do what happened to Margaret Clitherow on the orders of the Protestant authorities of England. She was stretched out on the ground with a sharp rock on her back and crushed under a door over laden with unbearable weights. Her bones were broken and she died within fifteen minutes. Her crime? Sheltering Catholic priests. My point here is to urge caution in attributing the practitioners of executions to to be the followers of ‘false religions’.
As a resident of Perth from 1962 to 1975 and a believer in the God of the bible I would rather go with the teachings of Jesus and the apostle Paul rather than popular opinion in these Last Days
I am sickened by what is happening in my country as I see what is happening in Perth, Brisbane, Victoria and elsewhere here. “Dean of Brisbane Openly Repudiates Church’s Teaching on Marriage”, “Diocese of Wangaratta pushes ahead with Same-Sex Blessings”.
Are all banks ‘rainbow’ banks now? I would prefer not to face the 6 stripe ‘rainbow’ plastered all over the bank when I have to go there? I think it was you Jennifer mentioned a while back the possible consequences of honouring or not honouring the 6 stripe rainbow in connection with Revelation?! Looks like you might have noticed something of significance. It will probably end up on our debit cards?
Had to look back to see exactly what I said… “it keeps coming to mind that the rainbow is becoming the modern mark by which people will be able to buy and sell.” Disclaimer: this is neither offered as a conspiracy theory nor a word of prophecy! Mammon is very much in the LGBT corner it appears.
Did that minister use the occasion to enquire into the hearts of those listening to his speech? Did he ask them if they truly love one another in the commanding way our Lord exhorts us in John 13:34? I didn’t hear anything of that. They do not love one another. They, like us, are sinners by nature. Did he make a gospel call for them to accept the one who loves us more than we ever could love Him back? No. Did he make a call for repentance of sinful behaviour? No. The call was to apologise for the biblical position on perverted practices. I made myself listen to it all when really I didn’t want to, yet I’m glad I did as he sounded like a man who ought to have made better use of the time he was given and ought to have thought twice about saying what he did – but as we know the Kirk has prostrated itself for so long on this issue it now seems to be the most commanding thing to do, given such a topical moment. It seemed a very personal statement, I wonder if he was given an absolute free licence to say whatever he wanted to, on behalf of the presbytery? He appears to have had their blessing, while acknowledging not all felt the same as he did. We live in such superficial times.
Look at the world around us this past few days. Is the human-driven love, expressed so admirably in “pride”, really working in the rise of progress? Shootings in Chicago and Manchester, another attack in London. The same old story.
No Christian should be surprised at what is going on in the world but the opportunity to bring a real, lasting message of love to those people who are looking for acceptance was lost at that event. The man is an ordained minister. Why are our ministers betraying their calling by acting in this way? The Kirk seems content to let alone – and surely it’s a poor shepherd that opines that goats are as welcome in the fold as sheep.
It’s funny because people (both Catholics and Protestants) wrote almost identical sounding articles 70-100 years ago about contraception – it was immoral, unbiblical, against the designs of God, etc. And yet here we are, Protestants and evangelicals embracing contraception.
Would you like to point us to the identical sounding articles that you refer to ? Have you read any? Or are you just repeating a myth?
John Calvin and Martin Luther for one:
“It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is doubly horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned by the Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent and untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and as cruel as shamefully has thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime. Onan was guilty of a similar crime” (Calvin’s Commentary on Genesis, vol. 2, part 16).
“This is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a Sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime to produce semen and excite the woman, and to frustrate her at that very moment. (LW 7.20-21).”
Lambeth Conference 1920:
“We utter an emphatic warning against the use of unnatural means for the avoidance of conception, together with the grave dangers—physical, moral, and religious—thereby incurred, and against the evils with which the extension of such use threatens the race.
“In opposition to the teaching which in the name of science and religion encourages married people in the deliberate cultivation of sexual union as an end in itself, we steadfastly uphold what must always be regarded as the governing consideration of Christian marriage.
“One is the primary purpose for which marriage exists—namely, the continuation of the race through the gift and heritage of children; the other is the paramount importance in married life of deliberate and thoughtful self-control”
To Lambeth Conference 1930, which I think, marked the first time that a major denomination backed contraception in the 1900 year history of the Church (albeit still very limited):
“Where there is a clearly felt moral obligation to limit or avoid parenthood, the method must be decided on Christian principles. The primary and obvious method is complete abstinence from intercourse (as far as may be necessary) in a life of discipleship and self-control lived in the power of the Holy Spirit.
“Nevertheless, in those cases where there is such a clearly felt moral obligation to limit or avoid parenthood, and where there is a morally sound reason for avoiding complete abstinence, the Conference agrees that other methods may be used, provided that this is done in the light of the same Christian principles.
“The Conference records its strong condemnation of the use of any methods of conception-control for motives of selfishness, luxury, or mere convenience”
I’ll post more when I’m not on my phone. My point is this though, pretty much every cultural revolution is eventually followed by the church some years later and then seen as very normal. In the early 20th century contraception was seen as a threat to the family as is LGBT rights today, and yet growing up in evangelical Protestant churches on two continents, consequenceless sex within marriage was seen as essential to that marriage. It was hard to find a married Christian couple not using contraception.
This article makes me feel incredibly angry and I’d like to point out that all of you are idiots. If, as you think it is, any gay, lesbian, polyamorous relationship is all about sex or ‘lust’ then you have never witnessed a relationship at all. Let’s face it, your views come directly from the fact that the only exposure you’ve recieved to these relationships is from porn.
Women have a lower sex drive than men as part of the effects from testosterone is a higher sex drive and aggression. So, respectfully, why the xxxx would we only be participating. God’s law has always been love. That is what caused lucifer to rebel, Him telling him to love humans more than He. And humans, (as well as plenty of other social animals in the animal kingdom before you try to pull that “it’s unnatural” xxxx on me) naturally are born gay/lesbian/bi/ace. Frankly, if your argument is that their bodies aren’t designed to reproduce, that’s such a weak thing. As there are women out there, who through no fault of their own, aren’t capable of producing children. Others don’t wish to go through the ordeal either. And if you don’t think that they deserve love and care just as much of the rest of us, as a person if not as a christian, then I’ll be ashamed of whomever raised you to have so much hate. Gay/bi/lesbians/ace’s are especially good things in this day and age, where most of us don’t have the time nor money to raise a family, and overcrowding is such a problem anyway. Back when the bible was written, 2000 years ago might I add, without modern healthcare or large societies, man and women together might have been the necessary thing to ensure the survival of the human race, but back then there were also limited amounts of cloth available and it was a sin to wear mixed fabrics due to waste.
Thank you, have a pleasant life, and I’d like to ask you to stop being so concerned in the love lives of others, and rather focus on your own.
Samuel….thanks for your post – it contains a lot so forgive me if I don’t mention everything. I have removed the swear words – you should be able to express yourself without feeling the necessity for swearing…I realise you are angry and you think that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. But I ask simply that you calm down and think about what is said….Let me tell you where your anger is misplaced and what you have got wrong.
1) I don’t think that every gay, lesbian, polyamorous relationship is about sex or lust.
2) I don’t watch porn and have never seen gay porn.
3) Love is not the same as sex or lust. Although ideally all sex should involve love. Its not just about chemicals.
4) Lucifer rebelled because of Pride. Ironic given that the rebellion against Gods sexual commands is often called Pride.
5) Yes there is homosexual behaviour in some animals. There is also incest, rape and killing….does that justify those in humans?
6) My argument is not that male bodies are not designed to reproduce. It is however that male and female were designed for each other. Thats basic biology.
7) I’m sorry that you have such a low view of children being born.
8) Love and care is not confined to sex. You don’t need sex to have them.
9) Not quite sure what the amount of cloth available in the 1st Century has to do with this!
10) I have no concern in the love lifes of others (although I note you seem to feel a great deal about it – to the extent of writing your lengthy post)….but I do have a concern for others (and that must include every aspect of their lives)…as for my own love life…its my anniversary today so I’m off to celebrate it!
I think this is an excellent article and agree entirely with it. I think it was a sad day for Perth indeed however I am coming at this from a slightly different perspective. I lived in the “gay scene for 10 years” before being called out of it by Jesus. I have now been celibate for 18 years. I have to say that as someone who tried to organise the churches in the city of Perth to come together and pray for those organising and attending the event, for several months before hand the response was pathetic I had 3 meetings with an average of 4 people attending out of 8 churches invited. The church are not interested in praying on this issue they are asleep, quite happy to condemn the issue but not so keen to intercede. I agree in some sense the church have treated the LGBT community badly for many years in the sense that they have simply looked at Romans 1 and focused on the 1 issue of homosexuality rather than addressing every other issue in that chapter. However before the fall of man in Genesis, man’s relationship was with God and then woman and Gods perfect plan for intimacy was marriage between a man and a woman that was mentioned before the fall, and that was God’s perfect plan for intimacy and then everything went wrong. God does not change his mind, God is not politically correct. However well intentioned Scott Burton’s speech was it failed to mention repentance and I dont believe you can have salvation and then continue in a sinful lifestyle. God’s love is not withheld from anyone but if you really love people you tell them the truth. If anyone wants to read my testimony please ask and I will send it to you
Perth’s shame? The only shame I feel is toward this utter load of garbage and the absolutely horrific comments being left.
“Secondly I would want to know if Rev. Burton would present the same speech at an Adultery Pride rally, an Incest Pride rally, or perhaps a Pedophilia Pride rally.” Really? How are those things even remotely similar to a Pride rally?
This is disgusting, infuriating, and laughable, all at the same time.
Thank you Rhiannon – perhaps I can explain what the connection is. Adultery, incest and paedophila are all forms of sexual behaviour – as is homosexuality and hetrosexual sex. The question is = which forms of sexual behaviour are acceptable and right. Surely you would not argue that all forms are? If not then how do you decide? Simply claiming ‘love’ is inane…because an adulterer will claim its all about love….does that mean his adultery is fine? Perhaps instead of abusing and name calling you engaged with the actual issues and discussion we could get somewhere? If however you are just going to abuse and mock those who don’t share your philosophy then maybe you should rethink your own understanding of what ‘love’ is?
well said David
Sexual behaviour that does not cause harm to others is acceptable, as far as i am concerned. Surely you’d agree that adultery, paedophilia and insest are harmful to others?
If a woman were to be cheated on and decided to leave her husband, what would your thoughts be on that? As adulterey, in your words is not acceptable; but if she were to leave, would that not negatively impact the sanctity of marriage?
Based on the comment of someone else who claims to have been celibate for eighteen years, then it’s okay to be gay but NOT okay to engage in sexual relations, is that what you’re saying?
Rhiannon – yes I agree that adultery, pedophila and incest are harmful (of course one has to define what we mean by harmful) but then I think that ANY expression of sex outwith that which God has given us is harmful. Including homosexual sex.
If a woman is cheated on and leaves her husband she is entitled to do so because adultery is such a serious act it is grounds for divorce. It is precisely BECAUSE marriage is holy that any sex outwith it is destructive.
Yes – I don’t condemn someone for their sexual orientation. There may be many reasons why someone is same sex attracted. I just simply ask that all of us – hetrosexuals as well as homosexuals live within the boundaries that God has given us. It makes sense to me to follow the Makers instructions.
Rhiannon, sin and hell are real. Scott Burton may have been trying to be nice but really he is not doing anybody any favours. David Robertson is only trying to point people to the truth – he is not out to hurt or judge anybody – but he cares enough to tell people the truth. All of us will be judged by God for our sin – whatever the nature of that sin – whether it be anger, sexual, stealing or whatever. Except God has made a way for us not to be judged – by placing the judgement on Jesus Christ on the cross. If we trust in Christ to take the judgement for our sins- the punishment which is death, – then that is what we call salvation – we are saved and don’t face hell but eternity with God in heaven. Telling people that relationships with people of the same sex are not sinful in God’s eyes is to not tell them the truth – so that is the unloving thing to do. The bible says in James 4:4 “You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” All this LGBTQ movement is very worldly – that is not to reject people who identify in this way – they are no better or worse than anybody else – but this is sexual sin against God. It doesn’t matter what we think – because it is God we will answer to at the end of our lives. I say this to genuinely help you.
Adultery has nothing to do with being homosexual.
They are not the same…but don’t you agree that they are both forms of sexual behaviour?
You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. If you truly believe that you are standing up for what is right, then great. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me. I respectfully disagree with your views, and have nothing further to say on the matter.
And to the person who states that sin and hell are real; I’m sure that those who have suffered at the hands of priests, nuns and other members of religious orders, would agree that hell is real.
we live in an age like paul did. that which is perversion is glorified. However that did not stop paul speaking out as we know he wrote what David Robertson has quoted from romans and that would have been read out to the church at the time. There is no shame now. However there are christians who struggle with same sex attraction but want to do what is right and the church needs to consider this and welcome such people into the fellowship. Indeed I think such people are best placed to help witness to those who are caught up in this perverse life style. We should all be doing something and we can start with prayer. I find that I meet more and more people now who are openly homosexual and if you say anything, you are branded homophobic and sometimes the police get involved. I recently was looking at an article about my old school and I discovered that they now have an equalities group and there was a photo of students holding up the gay flag. It seems to me that the big difference between my generation and theirs is that we were taught how to think, but they are taught WHAT TO THINK! A young person who thinks it wrong probably is expected to keep their mouth shut.
The issue I find (from personal experience, see my comment above) is that it often leads to Christians just using “same-sex attracted” as a more Churchy way of saying “gay”. Fundamentally, we shouldn’t even give ground that sees LGBT+ as a category of people. As in the terms of sin there are fundamentally only two sorts of people: those in Adam and those in Christ.
While I agree my testimony and those with similar testimonies can be particularly effective to those willing to listen, I find that it risks turning into a “here’s one of you lot who repented” . Which suggests that my former false identity and their false identity was valid (it wasn’t/isn’t).
While of course all sin has consequences and therefore certain worldly consequences (in terms of testimony and personal things) are inevitable (and I accept that), these are thoughts to bear in mind rather than criticisms of what you say.
Also I totally agree on the latter point, we are taught what to think (as a young man), and certain experiences we have are interpreted for us in an Ungodly way i.e. “you found a guy physically attractive, this means you’re gay” total nonsense of course.
Thanks. I think to that the way language is used, controls thought. We are expected to say Gay, but saying Poof is unaccountable even though that same word has been widely used. I also think we elevate this sin when in fact all sin is bad and as you say there are only two kings of people, those in christ and those who are not. I also think that it is no worse than any other besetting sin. Someone once said to me that the worst sin that anyone can ever commit is UNBELIEF, and I think that is so true.
Welcome to 2018. Embrace it, or simply, get off here. Oh and btw, the word “homosexual” didn’t appear in your book of fairytales till 1910. You parasite.
Thanks Nick….what do you mean by ‘get of here’? Are you suggesting we should be removed or kill ourselves? The word ‘homosexual’ is still not in my bible…but the teaching about those who have sex outwith Gods purpose is – and always have been. I note your use of words like parasite. Strange isn’t it – that you can post such hate speech in the name of love? It would suggest that you don’t really know what love is….
Having had a look at the website for ‘Rev’ Scott Burton and his current church, I do really worry for his congregation.
Do Christians not study the Bible nowadays, especially so-called clergymen? The ‘About us’ page of his church website confirms his church includes people of all sexual orientation and the ‘Our Minister’ page confirms his preferred reading as ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins??
Aside from the primary theological issue that you have highlight, I think one of the saddest things about his speech was that, in a speech supposedly centred around love and inclusion, the Rev Burton chose to highlight the great divide in the church, making “private message” public, and shaming those in the church who do not agree with him. For all his talk of respectful debate in the church, there was nothing respectful here – this was an “us and them” talk, a “pro- and anti-” talk. Even in the initial press release what was highlighted was not just that he was speaking, but that the Kirk was divided.
If the Kirk wants to show that it’s “broad” church is unified in it’s breadth, it needs to work on it’s message.
It would be possible (although perhaps unlikely and maybe ill-advised) for an orthodox minister to speak at an event such as this. There may even be occasion for offering an apology for the abuses of the church – and I don’t doubt that there have been times when LGBT people have been hated and abused in ways that are not Christ-like. I would love, for instance, to hear what kind of speech someone like the (frequently mentioned) Rosaria Butterfield would give, or Sam Alberry, if given such an opportunity.
It’s sad that Rev Burton instead chose to play to the stereotypes, and vilify the church he’s supposed to be part of (even if it is significantly broken).
I was recently asked if I am ex gay. Please No 1 Million times no. The whole issue of LGBT is based on identity. Where does ones identity come from? Does it come from ones sexuality if they are out and proud as I was once. ? Or does our identity come from something much more intrinsic. I lived in the gay scene for 18 years and my whole identity came from that i lived socialised and worked in the gay scene. Now I have become a Christian as soon as that happens a divine exchange takes place and it is no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me. Therefore my identity is in Him and not in my sexual brokenness
Gordon Kennedy, and Toshammer,
Better than great news.Thank you both for raising your head above the parapet with the life transforming Good News of Jesus. May He strengthen, encourage , fortify and be your satisfaction and delight and peace as you both face opposition that will also be an opportunity for the marvellous testimony you have been given, by and for Jesus. As you do so keep in mind the manner of the reality of your conversion to Christ.
And more importantly remember this:
“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15 :10 NASB
As Mike Reeves says this is “God’s joy” in the presence of angels. Imagine that if you can. Astounding, glorious.
Thank you for your prayers brother, I also hope that Christians that struggle to witness to people with these false identities are emboldened with the fact that Christ can save and change anyone.
Again, like Gordon, I don’t see myself as “ex-gay” but a redeemed sinner, who is blessed with a wonderful Church, minister and (as it happens) Fiancèe, I don’t thank God nearly enough for all three of those things. The passage that struck me was Mark 8:34 , once I realised what self-denial and following Jesus meant, through God giving me that insight through the Minister, everything fell into place.
“False identities”?
Am I to understand that you are claiming to have had your sexual orientation completely changed from homosexual to heterosexual simply by becoming a believer in Christ?
Yes Toshammer,
Identity and union with Christ is at the nub of it.
You may be interested in this:
“The New Testament rarely calls believers “Christians”: we modern believers almost never call ourselves anything else. The New Testament regularly describes believers as those who are “in Christ”; modern believers almost never do. The result? A widespread loss of the sheer grandeur of what it means to belong to Christ.” This was written as an endorsement by Sinclair Ferguson to a small book I got in a sale from a local Christian bookshop, last week: “In Christ: In Him together for the World “ by Steve Timmis & Christopher de la Hoyde.
From the introduction:
1 Imagining what Calvin would have said about church planting: “That’s simple: teach them what it means to be united with Christ” “For Calvin, this was the doctrine from which all other doctrine – and all Christian living – flowed.”
2 Citing John Owen from his exposition on Hebrews:
“This is the cause of all other graces that we are made partakers of; they are all communicated unto us by virtue of our union with Christ. Hence is our adoption, our justification, our sanctification, out fruitfulness, or perseverance, our resurrection, our glory.”
3 “Jesus does live in us. And we live in Him. It is a miracle of supernatural grace…an all powerful love that unites us intimately with Christ Jesus. And because of that union, all the riches of heaven are ours”
4 Calvin defines union with Christ as “the union by which we grow together with him so that He revives us by His Spirit and transfers his power to us”.
5 “Union with Christ is truly phenomenal and supernatural, but it is not make believe or mysterious. It is beautifully pertinent to daily experience.”
6 “… it incorporates and expresses all that God has planned from eternity past, through time, and into eternity future.”
Of course union with Christ opens the door to YBH, Yes But How?
No mere intellectual assent here, no lemon sucking reformers or puritans. Doesn’t it bring us to joyful , jaw dropping worship.
I recall delighting in this way when approached by two Jehovah’s Witnesses, as my wife and I were packing the car to go on holiday. I couldn’t just brush them off and took an opportunity. They were bemused, astonished and couldn’t respond with any of their well rehearsed points. My wife and I both said the same thing as we drove away: they probably thought we were a bit, not quite “all there.”
As a new Christian I attended worship service with a sermon from a Principal of a Scottish Bilble College. Using his hands, he demonstrated what it meant to be “in Christ”. Holding one hand out as if to shake hands with his thumb sticking up at right angles to his outstretched fingers. He then folded his thumb into the palm of his hand and wrapped his fingers around it. Then he wrapped his other hand around that. “You in Christ and Christ in the Father”. A simple (but theologically incomplete) illustration. And, yes, it is not a new one
John,
You just don’t get it do you, even from all that Thoshammer and Gordon Kennedy (GK) have written taken together above. GK’s comment of 15 Aug set it out simply. If you don’t get it, it may be that you don’t get the reality of conversion to Christ as expressed by GK: “Now I have become a Christian as soon as that happens a divine exchange takes place and it is no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me. Therefore my identity is in Him and not in my sexual brokenness.”
And before you get on your high horse, sexual brokeness is part of the sin of the whole of humanity, including heterosexuals, emanating from the Fall.
No John I am not claiming that. I have same sex attraction still I do not believe that orientation can be changed however I do believe that with Gods strength those who identify with same sex attraction can be celibate as I have chosen to do for 18 years. I am a Christian first and foremost I am creative, enjoy debates, writing, cats, bright colours, shopping I am a child of God, redeemed made whole, I am a saint, I am complete in Christ I am God’s Co-Worker oh and I happen to have same sex attraction. Being same sex attracted is just a small facet of my being.
As I couldn’t reply to John directly. The answer is no, heterosexual is not a category, as sexual orientatation is not a valid category of person. Geoff has saod the rest better than I could.
Correct Geoff – I don’t get it.
Hence my having asked the question.
I think I understand the bit about GK stating how – once having become a Christian – his former “identity” is discarded and that it now is apparently a case of Christ living in GK
I hope I have that right.
I was enquiring specifically about his sexual orientation. All believers in Christ still have a sexual orientation don’t they?
Thus – while GK may now find his life in Christ – is it the case that he still finds that his sexual orientation is the same as that prior to his having given his life to Christ?
As for the fall – I must confess to not understanding that either. As Adam and Eve cannot have existed, the fall – the origin of which is attributed to them – cannot have taken place.
“Would be interested to know about your binding unions that existed before Moses”
1. Moses wasnt real.
But if he was, then he would be from the period approx 1200 BC….
2. Egyptians were getting married at that time. Bithiah married Mered (after adopting Moses but when he was still young so hardly at his instruction. More importantly, Moses parents were married and that was not an anomaly at the time.
Civilization did not start with the Bible.
Gudea married into the ruling family of Ur-Baba. In Summeria. Prior to becoming ruler in 2144 BC.
I note that you recognise the existence of Jesus Christ ( 2144 BC). Moses was recognised By Jesus Christ , in fact they met up in front of very reliable witnesses. (Matthew Ch 17 and Mark 9)
I would not read to much into using a dating convention when discussing figures in the Bible. This is a Christian blog so I will at least try to acknowledge that. To be honest I doubt the existence of Jesus (especially anything other than Him being a very good preacher) but a lot of scholars dont doubt the historicity of Jesus so I will defer to them. Same scholars though have no doubts about denying the historicity of Moses.
But neither point addresses the issue the issue that binding unions existed before Moses. Or indeed existed in communities that had never heard of Christianity (or any other Middle Eastern religion) until we had ships that could sail the seas.
@ Rhiannon – Not sure if you will read this as you said you have nothing more to say. I have felt that way about this blog too – but it is a hub of discussion about the most pressing issues of our day – and very informative and interesting. I think you sounded a bit less angry when you finished speaking than when you started – and I hope you noticed that David Robertson – despite having different views to you – does not personally attack anybody. He may get straight to the heart of a matter – and none of us like our views challenged, especially on something as personal as religion or matters of personal sexual morality – but he is on the receiving end of vicious twisted lies and insults – for standing up for what he believes. His reason for doing so is to honour God and the Word of God – and to fight for ‘truth’ and to protect people from ‘lies’ and to try and turn people away from destructive lifestyles and point them to life in Christ Jesus. I don’t know how David Robertson keeps going as a defender of the Christian faith – in the face of the constant personal attack he receives. He is not an enemy of the LGBTQ community – he is a true friend to them and probably has a real love for them.
As for your remarks about hell, I know what it is to be on the receiving end of abuse from the Catholic church. Not all nuns and priests are abusive – so I wouldn’t tar them all with the same brush. There seems to have been a significant number of abusive Roman Catholic clergy though, and I think part of the problem is with them having too much power and a lack of accountability or supervision. There is also the problem of celibacy being a requirement for Catholic priests – and it is not a requirement in the Bible that those who chose to be a minister (priest is maybe an Old Testament word) should be celibate. But abusive behaviour is something that can be carried out by anybody – as we have seen time and time again. We don’t condemn the BBC or all television broadcasting companies just because of a few. One of the chief psychiatrists, evaluating the circumstances of children at risk, for the government child protection agency in Norway was found guilty of having child porn of the worst kind on his computer. Does that incriminate psychiatric services? The church is condemned because somehow we expect a higher standard of behaviour from those who proport to be Christians. We have a responsibility as Christians to bear witness to Christ by our behaviour – and we all fail – some terribly so – and some do evil in the name of Christianity or God, while not being Christians at all. But Christians have been responsible for some of the great things done too. Christ made the world more humanitarian! As Christians we are not professing to be perfect – we are professing the one who is perfect – Jesus Christ – compassionate, loving, sacrificial, holy, and able to save us from our sins – if we let Him.
I was traumatised, by nuns – I’ll spare you the details except -that by age 6, I remember hanging onto my sanity by a thread. This has nothing to do with hell – this is life on earth. Those nuns, if they didn’t repent of their sins, would go to hell. I have no bitterness against them – but I do know – that evil exists – and that the answer to the problem of evil and sin lies within Christianity. Christ died to overcome evil, sin and death and to make a way for us to overcome it too – both the evil committed against us – and the sin and potential or actual evil within each and every one of us.
What a bitter, bigoted & holy unchristian sounding article …….no wonder so many are simply not attending!
And please don’t spout the usual that Free churches are increasing, perhaps the are but the increase is relative to a low position in the first place !
Just calling something names because you don’t agree with it is not helpful – indeed such an attitude could itself be called bitter and unbigoted. Also a bit irrational….you acknowledge that our churches are growing whilst at the same time rejoice that people are not attending! Feel free to point out anything thats wrong in the article – but provide some evidence!
let me say something about the Free church of which I am NOT a member. Let me also say that my real name is George Falconer and you will find my book “Gods Kaliedoscope” by googling for it. Although I live in England and have done for a considerable number of years, I come from Dunfermline. I grew up thinking of the Free church as full of old people, very small and quaint. A couple of years ago, I attended the Free Church in St andrews and it was not my idea of the Free church at all. The place was full of young people, many of whom were at the university. There was singing with a band and modern music and the word of God was proclaimed. Clearly God is blessing the Free church. They have changed for the better. I was very impressed and I hear that they have planted a church in my home town so they are growing.