I got home from the Assembly last night and was asked to appear at 10:30pm on Radio 5 Live to discuss the Ashers bakery case. I was really tired and found it really hard. You can hear the programme here – from about 36 minutes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05vc9s9#auto
Why did I find it so hard?
1) I was really tired.
2) This is a spiritual warfare.
3) So many Christians are caving into the spirit of the age. Doubtless Ireland will vote for SSM today and part of the reason is the pressure being put on people by the zeitgeist.
4) Before I went on air I was shocked to hear of the Church of Scotland minister, Rev. Scott Rennie, had been ‘married’ in December and yet this had not been put to the Assembly when they decided on the case.
5) The continual abuse, mockery etc does wear one down.
6) And the playing with words really depresses me…
Anyway I feel that I did not handle it all that well – but we live and learn…..
Ye hae been geen the giftie to see yirsell as ithers see ye ! But stand valiant for truth ! Many of us agree with you – including many in the CofS
Hamish Kirk
Rothesay
Heard you and was praying for you all the while. You did well, if you want to do better next time that’s never a problem! Wish I could be that coherent when I’m tired.
I thought your example of a cake message that a Catholic might find offensive a little strange to begin with, but thinking about it, what better analogy to make someone understand how outlandish a view can be to someone who doesn’t hold the same opinion.
I must say that in all these current trials, I’ve been impressed at the graciousness and reasonableness shown by members of the Free Church and the evangelicals of the CoS, in their various responses. I must have missed the person of whom you speak in the title. There definitely was a few Christians though!
Och David, you were fine. Dinna fash yersel and keep yer heid!
You are probably suffering from the “having come down from the mountain” syndrome – a common experience for those who have spent a few days in warm fellowship with loving Christian folk. Sadly we cannot stay up the mountain and often we come back to earth with a bump.
Thank you for.stirring the pot.
We need to hear ideas and consider refining our positions.
David, just listened to the broadcast and the discussions. I don’t think you did badly at all. I think you are probably feeling battered after the fight. Don’t be discouraged!
Do not lose heart , you speak for so many of us.
Taing mhor
3) So many Christians are caving into the spirit of the age.
Mmm. So some change good, other change bad? After all, Christians burnt non-believers and blasphemers at the stake etc. Was the move away from that (e.g. the Enlightenment) Christians caving into the spirit of the age? Was it the spirit of the age that suggested that witches were not a thing so women (mostly) should not be killed at the orders of the Church and its representatives.
5) The continual abuse, mockery etc does wear one down.
This is unfortunate and should not happen. It should be a lot easier to debate these things without the need to mock. Mind you, producing a video that says equal marriage is not really equal marriage because two male relatives cannot marry does leave you a bit open to mockery for making a mockery of the debate in hand.
There are, of course, different ways to promote ones belief and understanding. You have chosen to be front and centre and, publically away from your ministry at least, opted for the confrontational Christian approach. You (and SOLAS CPC) have made it pretty clear that not only are you are Christian, you are a certain type of Christian with a very clear message that it is your Christianity that really should be the one that people should follow. You front up in the media with the clear, easy, low-hanging fruits messages. Messages around the influence of Christianity should have in society, the fact that your interpretations of the Bible on relationships, sexuality and identity should be the only ones that matter. I don’t think you did badly in the media interview as its exactly how I would anticipate you would deal with the issue. You presented the way that you are. Why worry about it now?
After all, the harder Christian messages about broader, less tangible issues such as poverty, physical and mental wellbeing, how we are governed, the influences of international corporations and concerns for the environment are less about your Christianity and more about how we should all treat each other. Your messages in these areas would not be as a distinctive Christian voice but rather one of many who’d agree including non-Christians (we would probably agree on a good number of these issues) so you shy away from them. It is harder to evangelise when people already agree with the topic, if not the reasoning behind it (a really crap basic example – you’d say poverty is bad and provide both biblical and sociological reasons for it and I would give sociological and scientific reasons).
To be honest, a lot of your messages here on this blog and in the media are not about bringing people to Jesus but to complain why people might be leaving/disagreeing/wanting a reduction in Christian privilege. And boy you have a vast array of things to complain about. My Christian wife really does get turned off buy your conservative positions on everything. And yet I do read all your blog posts and the ones where you talk about your ministry, the people you work closely with and your family all demonstrate a man who has genuine love for the work that he does and the people he does it for. That person is never on the radio or in the media. If it were, I think your messages would be better received and you’d feel better about your interviews.
Douglas – not quite sure about your version of history. I agree with you about the international corporations etc and often wrie about them – but the secular world is not really concerned about that. Its not the church that is oppsessed with sex! By the way you know of course that the big corporations gave great support to the Yes vote in the Irish referendum. I wonder why?
I don’t have conservative positions on everything. I have a biblical position on what the bible says. Politically and socially I am actually left wing (I regard for example the current Labour party as being far too right wing!). And my messages will rarely be better received because I go against the zeitgeist of the age and the general mob hysteria that accompanies it. Having said that I get many messages from Christians and non-Christians who appreciate my stance even if they don’t agree with it…
“Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit says The Lord”. I listened to you and you did well, and even if you think you could have done better, little is much when a God is in it.
David, I am sorry to read that you were feeling tired, worn down, depressed nd that you didn’t handle the interview well. It must have been difficult for you when faced with a challenging and difficult conversation as this was.
I tend to find in any such conversations, if I let other parties wind me up to the point of getting upset and / or aggressive, I may or may not win the argument, but I will probably have lost my audience. Therefore that such discussions and debates call for a cool head.
I think it important to remember that the world operates on different terms to “The word of God”. So for any stating that will be inflammatory. One might very well say if others find that offensive so what and that somethings what others say one finds offensive and there should be tolerance. However the danger I think we find ourselves in with taking that or a similar approach is that we can get into polemic adversity – stupid arguments if you like.
In order to show grace i think it requires engaging with the world on the world’s terms. I think that is what Jesus did with coming to serve not to be served. therefore what do we have? We have the Equality Act 2010 where religion as well as sexual orientation are characteristics that are protected against discrimination.
So, I think one Christian approach to this could be to leave others to judge whether the action in suing the bakery was a case of a member of the LGBT community having suffered discrimination then becoming discriminatory and reflecting badly on the community, or a proper exercising of their right against discrimination.
Then I think someting that is helpful is as you did to say that if you asked for a cake with lettering that a baker wouldn’t be OK with providing that you would get the lettering elsewhere. I think that would be enough to make the point. I think making more of it than that does run the risk of being accused of homophobia. You ay very well claim the right to express a view in keeping with the “Word of God” and have the right to not be accused of being homophobic but again, it seems to me a choice has to be made soetimes – what do we consider more important – our rights or the furtherance of the gospel. In other words, to what degree are we willing to sacrifice to that end.
I hope that was helpful. I understand that it must have been difficult for you to come down to earth with a bump after your recent mountaintop experience. It is what it is as it is for all of us.
Hang in there, tomorrow is a new beginning.
One of the many things that struck me when I watched the moderator’s address was that, when you sat down at the end, to me at least apparently exhausted, the Commissioners stood up to support you. Your own blog that “God is at work … because the people are so open to the vision of the Scriptures” — that’s some big support for a wee flea!!
You must be gutted that Ireland voted to let love win and treat people equally.
Don’t expect you to publish this, but keep up your outstanding work for secularism.
Ireland did not vote to ‘let love win and treat people equally’. Ireland voted for same sex marriage. Ireland voted to destroy traditional marriage and turn every marriage into a civil partnership. Of course there is not ‘equal’ marriage because there are lots of people who cannot marry…..its strange – if I do such a good job for secularism why do so many secularists hate me so much?!
Probably in the same way they hate ISIS.
Maybe I should come back later, you’re clearly upset. You cant see that gays now have equality. Folk who love each other can now marry.I was worried about hetero marriage though, in case allowing it suddenly made me want to commit incest. That’s what gay marriage will do, wont it, make siblings and rose bushes suddenly look sexy?
Given that the vote was carried, will you respect it?
Nope – I don’t take my morality from votes. Folks who love each other can now marry? You sure? Take some time and think about it….
Oh, David, you must have been so disconnected that you were watching the results of a completely different referendum. I wonder how you would have played it had the results gone the other way ?
The church needs to change otherwise it’ll consist of a very small group of the pure and the pious that no one listens to anymore.
Because you’re anti-love. You’re a villain. And I know you won’t admit it, but you love it. You love the ‘hate’ and, like so many Christians, delight in playing the victim.
It’s tough being a bigot in a world that doesn’t want bigots, isn’t it, David?
Thanks Jane for the bigoted comment!
David, keep up the good fight brother and be assured that the Lord has yet many in the country who have not yet bowed the knee to the Baals of this age and we are doing what we can in the spheres God places us in.
Does that include ignoring democracy?
I was very discouraged a few days back when the judgement was passed but I feel more encouraged as I listened to your contributions last night so thanks. I thought the host did a good job too. John 16:33!
David Continue to “fight the good fight”. As you say so many are caving in!!
Just a couple things.
I’m an atheist from across the pond, and we have a few similar cases here in the U.S. like the bakery case you talked about. Do you have any more information about it? I’d like to take a look at how things seem to be unfolding in the U.K.
It must be incredibly difficult to tackle such an emotive issue on a national radio show in the face of such hostility.
I regularly listen to 5live and am increasingly perplexed by the one sided arguments and disdain for any alternative view to the equality and discrimination position the BBC have pronounced on as acceptable. Almost every topic and inteviewee has to face the litmus test question on what their stance is on gay rights. Without fail, it’s an attempt to ‘expose’ their view of intolerance but is often the worst kind of intolerance.
Switching on to hear you clearly articulating the Christian perspective was fantastic and so refreshing. Yes, it was grounded in conviction and belief, but it also spoke to people of the alternative view and wider implications. I disagree strongly with Dugattihero above. We need people like you to speak with passion, love and intelligence.
particularly after a thoroughly depressing last q&a on BBCs Question Time the night before. The panel responded universally to the Asher question with a “don’t be so ridiculous” response without anyone daring to offer any other view. Sadly, this included Tim Fallon. I suspect if he had hesitated with the ‘mainstream’ view, he’d have kissed goodbye to his LD leadership hopes.
Thank you putting yourself forward. Please be encouraged and take up any future opportunities to speak! I thought it was absolutely spot on.
Can you explain Jonah where formed the impression that what I have expressed is not consistent with “passion, love and intelligence” and what specifically you have chosen to strongly disagree with?
Of course you will be aware that truth that sets you free is established established with facts not perceptions or opinions that are open to all and everything.
Either your engagement with what I have expressed is an inferred admonishment, an appropriated approach to correction of falsehood or it is error, a hindrance and in need of being corrected and admonished.
Thought you handled it well. The whole equality sham needs to be continually exposed for what it is. Well done Sir.