We hope you will find this podcast helpful – feel free to pass on, comment etc. The article I wrote for Christian Today has gone viral and this is the podcast version.
http://www.solas-cpc.org/wp/2014/10/quantum-of-solas-episode-6/
The original article is here – http://www.christiantoday.com/article/david.robertson.the.real.problem.with.god.tv.is.not.rory.alecs.moral.failure/41462.htm
Reblogged this on Pickering Post and commented:
Important , take time to look
Hello David, I am a regular reader of the said insect and its blog and I am happy to say that for the most part find it both helpful and often even enjoyable. (I envy your ability to rant at the drop of a ….!) To introduce myself: until very recently I was an elder – indeed Session Clerk at one of those very rare places in Edinburgh, a CoS evangelical church – indeed one known to you with its minister about to move to the along the M8. (I have quite recently resigned from those offices but we can talk about that some other time!)
To the point – My wife and I are committed Reformed, Evangelicals. We are “Word Alive” folk and frankly I have always had some difficulty with CLAN its choice of speakers, some of its leaders and so much of what I feel it represents. What I am regularly having to ask myself is it really a case of ‘style over substance’? Is it more about my prejudices than anything more concrete or Biblical? Some of these you touch on in your article where you make reference to the Health and Wealth, Name it and Claim it charlatans, the lies they tell and the real damage they and their doctrines can do for the true Gospel and to individual victims and casualties.
I am particularly ‘cautious’ of the practices, ‘schools’ and “Courses” which are promoted by Bill and Beni Johnson’s Church in Bethel Redding, California and also by some of the other leaders of this church. For example their Sozo Prayer ministry strikes me as completely unbiblical owing more to gnosticism and mysticism than anything in the Bible. Then there is their “School of Supernatural Ministry” – what is the Biblical precedent for its teachings? ‘Love After Marriage’ course (Kris Vallaton no mention of the Bible therein) Of course none of these Courses come free but with a hefty price tag – they are products for sale and so heavily promoted in a secular way. Some of these ministries (which to my mind are very doubtful theologically) appear to be ‘franchised’ being run by ‘accredited practitioners’ in local churches. But the specific thrust of my query to you is prompted by the discovery that and in the case of Scotland, it is some of the Clan Leaders’ churches who make these courses available. I am of a mind that says “Can anything good come out of Bethel Redding, Ca.?” For these possibly highly subjective reasons I was surprised that a few years ago (I think) you were on the same billing as a main CLAN speaker along with Kris Valloton. Am I fair, or even accurate, in my assessment or am I simply guilty of unfounded prejudice?
I hope you can find time to respond to my sincere query. Blessings on your valuable and much needed Apologetics Ministry Hamish Alexander
Hamish,
Good to hear from you…I basically agree with what you say…I was happy to speak at CLAN because although there are several things there that I would disagree with and have serious concerns about – I was not restricted in what I could say and it was a good opportunity to teach God’s word. …mind you I have not been invited back! I would really like to catch up with you- why not come up to the Solas centre in Dundee or perhaps we could meet up the next time I am in Edinburgh? Drop me an e-mail….
David
Hamish, I was so encouraged to read your comments regarding CLAN and Bethel and fully endorse them. I’ve read much about CLAN and its speakers over the past few years and I’m left astonished and sickened that it receives such support from main stream church and those who are deemed spiritually sound. I believe it’s far more serious than just ‘style over substance’ as there is substance in the teaching at CLAN but much of that substance is based in the occult (and I don’t make that remark lightly).
David, you say that you have serious concerns regarding CLAN, yet you have favourably referred to CLAN in three of your recent posts including linking CLAN with what you describe as ‘biblical churches who have Christ and His Word at the centre of their lives and their messages’. This could, and indeed does read as an endorsement, whether intentional or not.
In your God TV podcast, which I applaud you for, you call out the heretical Todd Bentley yet you will find that many of the speakers at CLAN are very closely associated with him. Heidi Baker has spoken at CLAN on at least two occasions and like Bentley, she too claims to have raised the dead. She also claims that the Holy Spirit told her to assault a leprosy sufferer rather than just pray for his healing! Baker endorses Bentley’s books, both pre and post Lakeland. Bill Johnson, C. Peter Wagner and the Arnotts, all of whom have spoken at, or have close links with CLAN, were part of Bentley’s commissioning ceremony in 2008. The speakers’ list at CLAN reads like a who’s who of the Toronto Blessing.
Hamish, I share your concerns regarding Bethel and its increasing influence in churches over here and worldwide. Bill Johnson, whose books feature heavily at CLAN, holds the heretical view that Christ was merely a man on earth, having set aside His divinity! Bethel, of which Kris Vallotton is a lead pastor, endorses ‘grave sucking’. This is a practice in which one lays on the grave of a faith healer/revivalist in an attempt to suck up the anointing from their corpse. CLAN sells a book called ’The Ultimate Treasure Hunt’ by Kevin Dedmon, forward by Bill Johnson and endorsed by Heidi Baker and Kris Vallotton . ‘Treasure Hunting’ as taught at Bethel is known in occult circles as ‘Psychic Questing’ and in Tibetan Buddhism as ‘Terma’. Like many of the practices endorsed by Bethel and by CLAN, it has absolutely no basis in scripture but can be found in the New Age, the occult and false religions.
Shane Claiborne and Pete Greig both spoke at CLAN in 2012; Claiborne is a Universalist and contemplative who believes Christians can have a mystical union of the Spirit with those of other religions. Pete Greig is known to many as co-founder of the 24/7 prayer movement. To understand the type of prayer Greig endorses look up Richard Rohr, founder of the Centre for Action and Contemplation. Greig recommends Rohr’s daily devotions and his books on contemplative prayer which are a form of TM. Rohr practices Zen Buddhism and runs courses called ‘Jesus and Buddha, the paths to awakening’ amongst other blasphemous teaching. Pete Greig also founded ‘The order of the Mustard Seed’, whose web site directs readers to the rejesus site to help them ‘enjoy a rhythm of deeper spirituality’. Far from offering biblical guidance, rejesus offers the ‘Zodiac Christ’ where you can click your star sign and see what Jesus holds in store for you!
Charity Bowman-Webb is a Creative Team leader at CLAN/CLAN Women and a frequent speaker at both. She jointly runs The Dream House and for £15 you too can have your dreams interpreted by a master certified dream interpreter of John Paul Jackson’s Streams Ministries (JPJ has also spoken at CLAN, his Streams Ministries run a stall there and his books and other material form the largest part of the CLAN Shop). According to the Dream House, there is a spiritual being called the ‘Giver of Dreams’ and ‘if you would like to start receiving dreams from the Giver of Dreams it is very simple-just ask the Giver of Dreams to help you remember any dreams that are from them’. This is not found in scripture, it’s demonic and you can bet they’ll help you remember! Bowman-Webb interprets dreams and offers prophetic words, on demand, at psychic fairs, often in conjunction with Blue Flame, another exhibitor at CLAN. She has also participated in the Burning Man festival in the USA, one of the largest pagan festivals in the world. In 2011 she helped fund an art installation at Burning Man called ‘Pillars of the Saints’ which sought to call out the inner saint and inner shaman in each of us. Participants would sit atop the pillar and meditate in an attempt to hear the voice of the ‘spirit’. The spirit was to remain without description to allow the participant to interact from their own personal belief system.
There are so many other false teachers and practices at CLAN from ’spiritual readings’ to claims that God speaks to us through art works to ‘The Healing Rooms’ at which you can have a Ruach card reading which is no different from a tarot card reading; sadly I could list so much more. All of the above information comes direct from the speakers’ books or web sites for which the links are available.
David, I realise that this is a very long comment but I hope you will post it, understanding my deep concern regarding false teaching within the church and the need for detailed information refuting it. I pray too that God will grant us wisdom and discernment as we seek to test everything and the courage to ‘sound the trumpet’ when we are confronted with false teaching.
Respectfully,
Angela
Hello David!
What you say about Rory and Wendy is correct.
I remember the words of Matthew 7,21 – 23
People have used the gifts, but did not generally working out the words of Jesus and HIS Apostles.
The mind is natural and not changed (1. Kor. 2,14).
They have not learned to follow Jesus in self-denying!
The book “Unknown Prophet” from Wendy contains much prophecies, which are real from God!
But the life style of God TV is until now fleshly and egoistic.
Much people with the prophetic gift think, that they are matured enough and will see the fullness of the coming outpouring of the spirit.
But they are not prepared. The character of Jesus could not be build through grace (Galatians 4,19)
So the prophetic gift is in the most case there, but there is no following Christ personally.
Do you know the book “Imitation of Christ” from Thomas Kempis??
In it is prophecy and practical deeds together and very helping for every follower.
Titus 1,16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny HIM!……
God bless you
Werner
David
Thank you for posting my comment. However, I noticed that you held it back for over a week before posting it, and then took the decision to block it from appearing in the feeds and emails, effectively burying it. Do you realise that your actions have given the impression that there was something in my comment that made you so uncomfortable that you felt the need to act with duplicity?
Angela
PS. May I also ask why you told Hamish Alexander that you had not been invited back to speak at CLAN? Were you not scheduled to speak at CLAN last summer before the event was cancelled?
Angela, I’m sorry but you are sounding a wee bit too conspiratorial. Things are not so complicated. I’m afraid that I already spend too much time on the internet and I certainly don’t do it when I am on holiday as I was last week….I was not acting with duplicity and would suggest that you need to be a little more careful before making such accusations based on very little knowledge.
I was due to speak at CLAN (at least provisionally) and would have been happy to do so but it was cancelled and I have not been invited to be involved in any other CLAN events.
‘I’m afraid I already spend too much time on the internet and I certainly don’t do it when I’m on holiday as I was last week.’
David, you were extremely active on your twitter account throughout that whole time, in addition to posting at least five comments and two articles on your blog. With regard to your appearance at CLAN, you clearly stated you hadn’t been invited back after you last spoke there, which gave the impression that your teaching of the Word was not in line with CLAN’s; in fact, they did invite you back and at the first possible opportunity.
My reason for contacting you was, and remains, my deep concern regarding the many false teachers and unbiblical practices that are prevalent at CLAN. Whilst you call people to come out from God TV, your involvement with CLAN is, even if unintentionally, calling them into an event that holds to the same teaching and practices, often administered by the same teachers and their associates. The blasphemous, American ‘prophetess’ that you referred to was Cindy Jacobs; she has just spoken at the invitation of the Glasgow Prophetic Centre, a partner ministry of CLAN, who regularly appear at CLAN events.
David, with regard to CLAN, you stated, ‘there are several things that I would disagree with and have serious concerns about’; as CLAN is the largest Christian event in Scotland, attracting several thousand people, will you please write an article addressing those serious concerns?
Angela
Angela, you really need to get over the paranoia and your desire to play amateur detective! I don’t have to answer to you – but I will. I am not on the internet all the time. I usually try to stay off on my days off, very limited on the Lords Day and on holidays. Your post was not posted for the same reason that all the others were not posted over that period. I was not on the internet. I had access to Twitter through my phone but I don’t use my phone for WordPress. It was not because I disliked it or any other reason. Honestly, I just don’t regard these things as that important and I would suggest that you don’t either.
Thanks for the suggestion about writing re CLAN – I am sure I will do so in the future. Fear of man (or woman) has never put me off in the past and I doubt it will do so in the future!